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Author Topic: Critics (Please ignore if you don't like long posts!).  (Read 638 times)
tapiola
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« on: 20:00:45, 16-02-2007 »

Dear all

Please excuse/ignore the following rant if you find it vacuous! I might be asking the obvious or completely talking nonsense (happy to be told!)…..

All of these recent discussion about Joyce Hatto has really made me think about one particular aspect of the music that we love. It’s made me think about critics and the part that they play in out appreciation of music and musicians.

On rec.music.classical.recordings and elsewhere a number of self-appointed critics have rather set themselves up for a fall and re-created themselves as people who define what is a good performance and what is not. I read their posts with a somewhat detached fascination, strangely because I really cannot see what they hope to achieve.

When reading a review I tend to respond to positives and largely find myself left cold by negatives. It can sometimes be the case that I will then buy a disc even if it has only a few good things said about it within a sea of criticism. On a large number of occasions I have been delighted with recordings that are absolutely torn to pieces by critics, so I HAVE to question the value of their criticism to me in particular.

Messageboards like this one tend seem to contain far more positive rants about things that people love (hands up if you have bought a recording on here because someone ranted about how much they loved it….), and I generally find that rather more helpful than someone telling me I am wrong for liking something.

An example? On classicstoday.com David Hurwitz wrote a really scathing review of Hickox’s recording of Vaughan Williams 3rd Symphony, declaring it to be the ‘… worst performance of Vaughan Williams' lovely Pastoral Symphony ever committed to disc…”. What I want to know is how on Earth he expects to be able to tell me how I am going to react to any performance? This recording in fact ranked highly on the BBC building library programme and many other critics have responded very warmly to it.

The questions I seek to answer is probably unanswerable, but here goes…

Would critics do more for us by highlighting what they thought was good about a recording rather than telling us what is bad? When we are dealing with an art form, to what extent can there be a right or wrong anyway? If we conclude that there is room for different interpretations (critics MUST believe that there is room, otherwise they wouldn’t be able to recommend anything unless it identical to a definitive version!) then it must all be a matter of opinion and, then, what right do the critics to state their opinions as facts (as Hurwitz did in the example above)?

Sometimes, I admit, there can be obvious flaws in a version, but what are we missing if no-one tells us what’s also good?

Best wishes

Nick
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"...and woodsprites in the gloom weave magic secrets..."
martin pyne
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« Reply #1 on: 21:34:15, 16-02-2007 »

I think that we should remember that any piece of criticism is one person's opinion at one moment in time. I know I can respond quite differently to the same recording at different times. Sometimes one is more open and receptive than others.
I do look for critics who search for the positive. Creative artistic endeavour is involves a huge amount of hard work and the artist is taking a risk by leaving him or herself very vulnerable. If you spent an afternoon putting a new wardrobe together and then someone walked in and told you it was the worst wardrobe they'd ever seen you might be a little hurt. Imagine then spending years developing a repertoire/composing a symphony/writing a novel or whatever, finally presenting it to the public , and then having it trashed by someone.
If I come across some music that I at first don't like or respond to I try to look for what I might be missing or to approach it from a different angle. Artists give a huge amount of themselves and don't deserve to have they're efforts dismissed out of hand.
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tapiola
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« Reply #2 on: 21:57:57, 16-02-2007 »

Hi Martin

Indeed my enjoyment of any particular recording can vary hugely without input from anyone else, just simply the passing of time and the changing of moods.

Being humans I am sure that critics are just the same......

Nick
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"...and woodsprites in the gloom weave magic secrets..."
rachfan
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Posts: 24



« Reply #3 on: 14:19:44, 20-02-2007 »


Nick,

I wrote a long reply to your post and, just before posting, did something weird with my laptop 'touchpad' and lost the lot.  B****y touchpads - I must get my mouse out of its cage again....  Your comments are far from 'vacuous' and they have stimulated me to produce a (too) long reply.

Like you, I have been forced to think a bit about this issue since the Hatto business.  In my youth, I was in thrall to the critics (Gramophone etc. as well as newspaper reviews of concerts) and their views helped to form mine.  I always wanted the 'best' recording and didn't have enough money to risk wasting it on poorer performances.  As I gained confidence and experience and began to understand more about the fallibility of critics (and as I saw major disagreements between them) I relied on them less and became increasingly willing to risk the odd 'duff' CD for the sake of a bit of adventure.  As I widened my scope, I found many treasures and I gradually gained my own critical independence. The 'mistakes' sometimes turn out to be anything but that on deeper acquaintance - and as you say, Nick: 'Indeed my enjoyment of any particular recording can vary hugely without input from anyone else, just simply the passing of time and the changing of moods.'  Yes, and that does indeed 'go for critics, too'.  Nevertheless, we need critics to help us find our feet when we are young or inexperienced.  We are not born with fully developed musical critical faculties and each of us will gain our independence at a different point.

What I do expect in a critic is honesty, balance, and enthusiasm.
 
Honesty seems to be a lot to ask for in this cynical, commercial world but I increasingly know which critics I can trust (and I have a long memory). 

Balance is crucial - I cannot accept vehemence in a critic.  If a performance is really dire, there are ways of saying this which make it clear to an intelligent reader but which don't labour the point and, as you say, there is no performance which is entirely devoid of merit.  David Hurwitz (and others) really should know better.  Extreme reactions say more about the writer than the subject IMO.  We see enough of that on the message boards - just look back to the R3 boards and see some of the OTT comments from posters more interested in rubbishing the 'Hatto' recordings at all costs (and many had not bought or heard any) - more interested in being 'right' than anything else.  Some of the recordings are very fine (I still enjoy the modest number that I bought, by the way) and I will continue to ignore the more extreme reactions on the various message boards.  I am simply waiting to hear who actually played them!

Genuine enthusiasm is something which will always seduce me into exploring a new area, even though these forays are not always successful.  Like you, I am grateful to enthusiastic posters on message boards who have encouraged me to widen my view (even though it is currently costing me more than it should).  Critics who cannot generate enthusiasm should consider their position.  Yes, I buy CDs on the basis of enthusiastic reviews, even if a review contains caveats.

I risk losing the plot.  To come back to your post..... Yes, the positive is very important and I want to hear 'positives' in reviews but I really do want 'negatives' to be considered, too.  Not just gaps in a review - that could be an avoidance of an issue or it could be laziness (or even an Editor pressed for space). The negatives must be justified and argued but they do have an important place for me.  Sensitive but constructive criticism is so important in life.  Would you want any professional who is handling really important things in your life to have been trained on the basis that his/her teachers only commented on the things (s)he could do well? I don't want a mechanic working on my car to be very good at engines but useless at brakes because his teachers concentrated only on the positive!  Take that one stage further and consider medics....

I guess what I should also have included as important (in all things?) is a little humility.  We all make mistakes and nobody has perfect judgement.  Once a critic thinks (s)he is close to God then they should be ignored.  Especially if they aren't very good at whatever it is they are criticising!

Sorry about the length; my first effort was more succinct.  Please don't criticise.

John
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #4 on: 11:10:12, 22-02-2007 »

I am a critic, I suppose - I write for International Record Review under the pseudonym Carl Rosman Wink , just to put my cards on the table.

For me as soon as a critic begins to mistake themselves for the main feature and the recording for the support act they've lost me, and that happens far too often. You can't expect a critic to remove their opinions from the equation, but I think it's fair to expect that they report the facts and give some information that will be useful to those who don't approach a recording with the same preconceptions. I know that does mean writing 'some may find this...' a lot, but so be it. It also means reporting the merits of a performance even if they're not the things you look for in a performance.

I remember on the old board people writing stuff to the effect that <Insert Name of Conductor Here> was supposedly talentless. My immediate thought was of course 'says who? Says someone with a computer, a CD player, a big mouth and too much spare time'. In fact a published critic doesn't needs any more qualifications than that. Ought to be cause for humility.

Big issue, no time. Must scurry!
« Last Edit: 11:39:56, 22-02-2007 by oliver sudden » Logged
Ian Pace
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« Reply #5 on: 12:37:16, 22-02-2007 »

Ah, but some critics are concerned to demonstrate their 'taste', believing they are some of the chosen few that have been invested with such a thing from birth - the views, priorities, interests of other mere mortals don't count according to such a perspective.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
perfect wagnerite
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« Reply #6 on: 13:15:51, 22-02-2007 »

A few random thoughts ...

Music criticism began in the days before recorded music; it was essentially reportage, and it was expected that it would be carried out be people with enough musical knowledge to assess new music and make informed judgements.  Its role has changed; so, importantly, has the amount of space critics have to make their point (long gone are the days when a Peter Heyworth or a Felix Aprahamian could command an entire page of a Sunday broadsheet for detailed and argued criticism, and the mainstream press has all but abandoned any pretence at serious music criticism).

The emphasis now seems much less on the objective (what is a new work and how is it constructed? what is the interpreter really doing with the piece?), which requires space and expertise to describe, and much more on the objective.  It's a point that Harrison Birtwistle made in his memorable speech at the Boulez 80th birthday concert - that there are no longer critics with the intellectual clout to describe new music sensitively and intelligently; and apparently no demand (and certainly no space outside the very specialist media) for them to do so.  There is an argument that says that there needs to be a clear distinction between what Ernest Newman called the "sensitive plate" school of criticism - which is always going to contain an element of "me, me, me" - and the rigorous discussion of music and performance.

And finally, just in case nostalgia sets in for the good old days, critics have an unenviable history of getting it wrong - the list of new works which were critically panned but are now part of the canon is long and distinguished

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At every one of these [classical] concerts in England you will find rows of weary people who are there, not because they really like classical music, but because they think they ought to like it. (Shaw, Don Juan in Hell)
xyzzzz__
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« Reply #7 on: 13:23:08, 22-02-2007 »

"You can't expect a critic to remove their opinions from the equation"

I quite like when a critic tries to do this (they don't trust opinions - everybody has one) and doesn't put a final thumbs up/down in a way that implies they've stopped thinking about a certain piece or record.

Basically, I'm more interested in critics who 'show their work', less in the outcome of that.
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teleplasm
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Posts: 49



« Reply #8 on: 13:49:31, 22-02-2007 »

Dear all

Please excuse/ignore the following rant if you find it vacuous! I might be asking the obvious or completely talking nonsense (happy to be told!)…..

All of these recent discussion about Joyce Hatto has really made me think about one particular aspect of the music that we love. It’s made me think about critics and the part that they play in out appreciation of music and musicians.

On rec.music.classical.recordings and elsewhere a number of self-appointed critics have rather set themselves up for a fall and re-created themselves as people who define what is a good performance and what is not. I read their posts with a somewhat detached fascination, strangely because I really cannot see what they hope to achieve.

When reading a review I tend to respond to positives and largely find myself left cold by negatives. It can sometimes be the case that I will then buy a disc even if it has only a few good things said about it within a sea of criticism. On a large number of occasions I have been delighted with recordings that are absolutely torn to pieces by critics, so I HAVE to question the value of their criticism to me in particular.

Messageboards like this one tend seem to contain far more positive rants about things that people love (hands up if you have bought a recording on here because someone ranted about how much they loved it….), and I generally find that rather more helpful than someone telling me I am wrong for liking something.

An example? On classicstoday.com David Hurwitz wrote a really scathing review of Hickox’s recording of Vaughan Williams 3rd Symphony, declaring it to be the ‘… worst performance of Vaughan Williams' lovely Pastoral Symphony ever committed to disc…”. What I want to know is how on Earth he expects to be able to tell me how I am going to react to any performance? This recording in fact ranked highly on the BBC building library programme and many other critics have responded very warmly to it.

The questions I seek to answer is probably unanswerable, but here goes…

Would critics do more for us by highlighting what they thought was good about a recording rather than telling us what is bad? When we are dealing with an art form, to what extent can there be a right or wrong anyway? If we conclude that there is room for different interpretations (critics MUST believe that there is room, otherwise they wouldn’t be able to recommend anything unless it identical to a definitive version!) then it must all be a matter of opinion and, then, what right do the critics to state their opinions as facts (as Hurwitz did in the example above)?

Sometimes, I admit, there can be obvious flaws in a version, but what are we missing if no-one tells us what’s also good?

Best wishes

Nick


If Hurwitz thought that Hickox' recording of Vaughan-Williams' Pastoral Symphony was awful, should he have:

(1) Mentioned its good points, if any, and kept quiet about its being awful. Hardly responsible criticism.

(2) Mentioned its good points, but also let on that it was awful, in which case he makes it sound like the proverbial curate's egg, good in parts. Who would want to listen to a record that was awful, but had some good points?

(3) Not reviewed it at all. If records are reviewed only by critics who like them, this is misleading the listener. And suppose no critic can be found who likes it?

What you don't deal with is the importance of a critic giving reasons for his opinions. If he does that, the reader can decide for himself what weight to place upon those opinions in forming his own opinion whether to buy the record.
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tapiola
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« Reply #9 on: 17:42:15, 22-02-2007 »

Hey

I really don't mind if the reviewer finally gives the impression that they think a recording is awful (yes, with reasons!) but to simply state their opinion AS FACT seems to me to be missing the point that we are essentially dealing with subjective arts. To be honest, it just comes across as arrogant.

It would indeed be irresponsible to ONLY report the positives, but it seem much more sensible to say things like....'I can imagine that some listeners may not be comfortable with xxx' etc etc. Let us know what the critic thinks they like or dislike and let our own hearts and minds guide us in the rest.

I happen to really like Hickox's V-W Pastoral, so it seems peculiar to simply damn it as 'the worst ever recorded'.

We seem to be arguing on the same side here, so I'm going to shut up now..... Shocked
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"...and woodsprites in the gloom weave magic secrets..."
trained-pianist
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« Reply #10 on: 18:00:29, 22-02-2007 »

  • If a performance is really dire, there are ways of saying this which make it clear to an intelligent reader but which don't labour the point and, as you say, there is no performance which is entirely devoid of merit. - quote from the post of rachfan.
I think that if musician is allowed to record there is something good in it. Even if I hear a student plays there is something good in it.
Critic should put his opinion crlearly, but without destroying some one completely.
However it is better said than done.

I personally don't believe critics anymore. I read sometimes what was written about a concert I attended out of curiosity. Sometimes I agree with critic, and some times I think we were listening to different performances.

I encountered here kind of ok (more or less fair) critics. But for records I think many things are done because of business matters. 
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