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Swan_Knight
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« on: 09:33:22, 16-02-2008 » |
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Here's a challenge....
Just because HvK was as rich as Croesus and as powerful (in his day) as the head of the Russian secret service, does it necessarily follow that he was no good at his day job...?
Or are there times when, maybe despite yourself, you're forced to admit he was the greatest conductor of the 20th century?
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...so flatterten lachend die Locken....
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Milly Jones
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« Reply #1 on: 10:08:34, 16-02-2008 » |
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Erm...sorry....but no. He wasn't the greatest conductor IMHO and perhaps wasn't the nicest of characters either, being reputedly a Nazi-sympathiser. I've seen the house in Salzburg where I think he was born. I have owned recordings of his in the past but have parted with them all. Too heavy and plodding for me as a rule. Lots of other people like him though!  |
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We pass this way but once. This is not a rehearsal!
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iwarburton
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« Reply #2 on: 11:19:33, 16-02-2008 » |
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No problems professionally but if you're referring to Karajan the person--no, you've got me licked!
Ian.
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martle
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« Reply #3 on: 12:56:25, 16-02-2008 » |
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I'm a bit stumped, too.
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Green. Always green.
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perfect wagnerite
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« Reply #4 on: 13:26:39, 16-02-2008 » |
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Certainly not the greatest conductor of the twentieth centry (but then I'm not sure that this is a particularly useful concept). But on his day he made a number of truly outstanding recordings - the 1960s DGG Sibelius symphony recordings come to mind, and some of his Bruckner and Strauss. But too many Karajan performances remind me of that comment of Aaron Copland's about the difference between Beethoven and Mahler - the difference between seeing a great man walking in the street and a great actor playing a great man walking down the street. Karajan is the actor, compared with Toscanini, Klemperer, Walter et al.
His opera recordings seem to me to be largely disastrous - he does not seem to have been a conductor who valued the singer, preferring instead voices that could be bent to his will like just another part of the homogenised instrumental texture; to me, they too often sound overblown and bloodless (most of all that ghastly Philharmonia Rosenkavalier, whose reputation I have never understood - to my ears it's almost a sort of anti-music as Karajan conceives it).
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At every one of these [classical] concerts in England you will find rows of weary people who are there, not because they really like classical music, but because they think they ought to like it. (Shaw, Don Juan in Hell)
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #5 on: 13:30:40, 16-02-2008 » |
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I suppose he used his power and influence to turn the BPO into the powerhouse orchestra of Europe, the benchmark by with others were judged for many years. When I moved abroad from Britain, I made a decision to ditch a lot of clutter and things I never used. Without noticing it consciously, I find later that I gave all my Karajan recordings to friends or to Oxfam - can't stand them  He's created a mythical persona of what a "conductor" ought to be - an autocratic despot - which has done nothing but harm to the image of classical music in the wider world. Unless there are works of which I am unaware, his contribution to the repertoire in terms of commissions, dedications, etc, was zero, and his legacy is something of a musical leech. |
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« Last Edit: 13:32:25, 16-02-2008 by Reiner Torheit »
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
- Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
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perfect wagnerite
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« Reply #6 on: 13:41:51, 16-02-2008 » |
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On the other hand, the city fathers of Wien obviously thought highly of him:  |
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« Last Edit: 13:44:38, 16-02-2008 by perfect wagnerite »
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At every one of these [classical] concerts in England you will find rows of weary people who are there, not because they really like classical music, but because they think they ought to like it. (Shaw, Don Juan in Hell)
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Tony Watson
Guest
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« Reply #7 on: 13:56:56, 16-02-2008 » |
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In my recording of the Tannhauser Overture, with Karajan and the BPO, when the opening tune is played for the second time, loudly, and the violins are doing busy things, it's the only version I've heard in which the violins play exactly what is written - ie not only do you hear the notes but also the rests in between. I'm not saying that no one else does it, but it seems rare. The result is quite special.
That's the nice bit. As for opera, didn't Karajan conduct with his eyes shut? Wasn't that unhelpful to the singers?
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Daniel
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« Reply #8 on: 14:11:51, 16-02-2008 » |
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As for opera, didn't Karajan conduct with his eyes shut? Wasn't that unhelpful to the singers?
A friend of mine was playing in the European Youth Orchestra in the seventies, and Karajan came along to conduct them in a rehearsal and concert. As you say, he shut his eyes, even in rehearsals, so in one rehearsal the orchestra all agreed to respond to this, so that when he raised his hands and brought them down to start the music, there was absolute silence. When he opened his eyes to find out what was happening he found them all with their eyes shut. He was apparently good-humoured about it and laughed, and said the reason he conducted like that was because he had a photographic memory and with his eyes shut he could read the music as it went along. |
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brassbandmaestro
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« Reply #9 on: 14:47:09, 16-02-2008 » |
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Some of Hvk's stuff was ok and brilliant. Especially, Mahler, Beethoven and Richard Strauss. But even then, some of these composers, he can be rather poor.
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...trj...
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« Reply #10 on: 14:49:57, 16-02-2008 » |
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A friend of mine was playing in the European Youth Orchestra in the seventies, and Karajan came along to conduct them in a rehearsal and concert.
As you say, he shut his eyes, even in rehearsals, so in one rehearsal the orchestra all agreed to respond to this, so that when he raised his hands and brought them down to start the music, there was absolute silence. When he opened his eyes to find out what was happening he found them all with their eyes shut.
Excellent story! said the reason he conducted like that was because he had a photographic memory and with his eyes shut he could read the music as it went along.
One could achieve the same effect (without the pretension and with the ability to interact properly with your players) by simply not bringing the score with you onto the stage... |
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opilec
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« Reply #11 on: 14:53:58, 16-02-2008 » |
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I'm afraid that, like Reiner, I parted with most of my (relatively few) Karajan recordings long ago. Everything, even when sounding gorgeous, sounds so manipulated and manufactured. (And you only have to see a video of him to see how appropriate the word "manipulated" is.) I guess he had some musicality, but it just gets smothered in the surface sheen and the sheer egotism. Actually, I think he was probably one of the worst influences on conducting, performing and recording in the last century. There's nothing I've heard him conduct (including what are usually reckoned to be his "strengths") that I haven't heard done many times better (if less "perfectly") by others. And I agree that most of his opera recordings were terribly misjudged.
pw mentioned Walter, and I've recently been listening to some of Walter's NYPO Beethoven symphonies: now there was a conductor! Big passions, big heart, strong, characterful, gripping performances and an innate musicality that shines through in just about everything he did.
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pim_derks
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« Reply #12 on: 14:57:34, 16-02-2008 » |
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I have a Karajan recording of Sibelius's Swan of Tuonela here and it's beautiful.
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"People hate anything well made. It gives them a guilty conscience." John Betjeman
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stuart macrae
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« Reply #13 on: 18:27:15, 16-02-2008 » |
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I don't think I've ever heard any recordings (or performances) of Sibelius Symphonies 4-7, and Tapiola, that even come close to Karajan's with the BPO. They just bring everything onto a higher, very special, plane. The pacing is perfect (even though it's often rather slower than Sibelius had suggested in his scores, I prefer Karajan's way), the orchestral sound suits Sibelius perfectly, and the performances have an honesty, sincerity and intensity that I have not found with other Sibelius interpreters. I also like his recordings of Strauss, and don't really care about his personality flaws - all in the past now...
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pim_derks
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« Reply #14 on: 19:08:42, 16-02-2008 » |
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Karajan and opera. I like this one:  That old mono sound directed by Walter Legge is lovely. I also like this one:  Beautiful orchestral playing. The sound reminded me of Debussy now and then. |
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"People hate anything well made. It gives them a guilty conscience." John Betjeman
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