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Author Topic: Say something nice about Herbert Von Karajan.  (Read 2341 times)
oliver sudden
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« Reply #60 on: 16:01:39, 07-04-2008 »



 Lips sealed
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #61 on: 16:44:59, 07-04-2008 »

Let's see: is the relationship of classical music to society (hardly a small subject) somehow more of a:



than, for example:



Without for a moment assuming a role of Lebrecht-defender, I think I have some idea of why he in particular attracts such obsessive disdain from many quarters, certainly in a relatively middlebrow environment like here. Most of the ostensible reasons (highly opinionated, arrogant, doesn't always do his homework properly, hyperbolic) could be levelled at any number of others. In terms of detailing Karajan both as musician and machinator, Lebrecht seemed to capture him quite acutely (doesn't mention the fact that Karajan conducted the Horst-Wessel-Lied before every concert during the Third Reich, though).

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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Stanley Stewart
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Well...it was 1935


« Reply #62 on: 16:48:01, 07-04-2008 »

  Quite shameless, Ollie, upstaging my avatar!      Grin

  Coincidentally, my DVD 'Karajan  or Beauty as I See It' - a film by Robert Dornhelm arrived today.   I'll have a shufti tonight.  Contributors include Gundula Janowitz, Rene Kollo, Christa Ludwig, Anne-Sophie Mutter, Christian Thielmann - and Hemut Schmidt!      Can't wait.
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Stevo
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« Reply #63 on: 21:38:13, 07-04-2008 »

Without for a moment assuming a role of Lebrecht-defender, I think I have some idea of why he in particular attracts such obsessive disdain from many quarters, certainly in a relatively middlebrow environment like here. Most of the ostensible reasons (highly opinionated, arrogant, doesn't always do his homework properly, hyperbolic) could be levelled at any number of others. In terms of detailing Karajan both as musician and machinator, Lebrecht seemed to capture him quite acutely
Really? How fascinated we are to hear that Norman won't miss him. He shares this compulsion to skilfully opine thus with the tabloid telly reviewers.

It is massively unfortunate that the best-known journalist on serious music also peddles the most scurrilous nonsense. The endless proclaiming the death of music is simply preposterous; there is not one shred of evidence that music is 'dying' except that which is buzzing around in his head. It is more 'alive' in so many ways than ever before. And the Naxos affair was simply inevitable.

I'd love a really prominent music journalist who was also readable, intelligent and penetrating. Norman Lebrecht is none of those things.
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Andy D
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« Reply #64 on: 22:56:42, 07-04-2008 »

pseudo-arty haute-bourgeois twaddle

I find the music criticism in The Sun and The Daily Mirror so refreshing.

 Grin Grin Grin
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #65 on: 00:48:27, 08-04-2008 »

The endless proclaiming the death of music is simply preposterous; there is not one shred of evidence that music is 'dying' except that which is buzzing around in his head. It is more 'alive' in so many ways than ever before.
Are audiences for classical music not getting older and not being replenished by younger ones? Do classical CDs have much of a future (at least those which are expensive to produce) in an age of mass copying and internet downloading? Is the whole system of public funding for music not beginning to disintegrate? Does classical music not (at least in the UK) get less coverage in the national press than ever before (and popular music more so)? Is there not a loss of faith in defending the value of some sort of musical 'high culture' as a whole from many quarters? Are promoters, commissioners, radio stations prepared to really take the risks they have done in the past in commissioning new work that will have more than a transitory impact?

Or is classical music in danger of being superceded by the work of Karl Jenkins (who now appears on the A-Level syllabus) and the like? If so, it might not have literally 'died', but it would certainly be brain-dead.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #66 on: 05:47:37, 08-04-2008 »

Meanwhile, this month ENO (LOST HIGHWAY), ROH (THE MINOTAUR) and Opera North (PINOCHIO) are all premiering full-scale newly-commissioned works, which are playing to packed houses.   There are two different productions of PUNCH & JUDY playing. POWDER HER FACE appears at the Linbury in a new production.  Northern Ballet Theatre have a new production of HAMLET to a newly-commissioned score by Philip Feeney.  This is quite apart from a new David McVicar production of ROSENKAVALIER at ENO, and an utterly sold-out-within two-hours-of-booking-opening DON CARLO at the ROH directed by Nick Hytner.

The patient's receiving Intensive Care, and is receiving so many visitors that the upper limit's been reached for most days.

Enquiring readers are encouraged to put their faith in conventional practitioners,  rather than listen to the crap propogated by witch-doctors and others who make a living preying on irrational fears.
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marbleflugel
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« Reply #67 on: 07:38:46, 08-04-2008 »

Sometimes it's the little things-the Hamlet ad on the tube doesnt mention a composer at all, so you assume its bits if  Gounod/ Berlioz, and neither did the recent revival of John McAbe's Edward 2 -also NBT production I think. I guess they may be aiming at simple visceral impact so the audience note how its done once theyre in their seats. At the RPO the other night I was struck by the warmth of the general punters, although the 'friends' didnt seem very friendly to each other. I think the answer is on both counts a consistent approachability-a lot of sense talked by new honcho at National Youth Orch on R3 last night about pitching to their peers with other interests and local relationships. Traditionally we Brits have been far far too diffident and trusting of some 'young Elizabethan' spirit rather than getting out there and benignly banging the drum so to speak. As I left the RPO, for some reason one of the fiddle players played a snatch (that word again) of something pre-classical from the back of a car .\I'm not advocating for busking, and the RPO is in better shape financially after all now, but it was a happenstance reminder to the passer-by that music transforms the environment and the punter wots innit.
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ahinton
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« Reply #68 on: 08:07:10, 08-04-2008 »

The endless proclaiming the death of music is simply preposterous; there is not one shred of evidence that music is 'dying' except that which is buzzing around in his head. It is more 'alive' in so many ways than ever before.
Are audiences for classical music not getting older and not being replenished by younger ones?
I think you may have an unintended double negative in here; assuming the "not" between "music" and "getting" to be the redundant one, whilst there may be some evidence of classical music audiences getting older, I don't believe that there's anything like enough to make it a cause for major concern and certainly insufficient to justify claims for its impending demise - claims which, let us remember (how could we forget?!), Mr Lebrecht has been making so repeatedly over so long a period now that one could almost make a minimalist piece out of them.

Do classical CDs have much of a future (at least those which are expensive to produce) in an age of mass copying and internet downloading?
Yes, I think that they do; a compromised one, undoubtedly, for the very reasons that you mention and the more expensively produced ones may indeed risk becoming something of an endangered species without some form of private and/or public subsidy, but neither the demand for them nor the sheer amount being produced suggests "the death of the classical CD", as Mr Lebrecht would have us all believe.

Is the whole system of public funding for music not beginning to disintegrate?
If not quite that, it's certainly getting frayed around the edges, but the public purse is, as I've said before, not the only source of funding (and especially not now that there are so many holes in that purse); as I have also said previously, however, there is nevertheless a grave danger in governmental complacency in such matters along the lines of "we don't have to allocate too much taxpayers' money to commissioning challenging new "classical" music because it's a minority interest and someone else will pay for that if they want to".

Does classical music not (at least in the UK) get less coverage in the national press than ever before (and popular music more so)?
Sadly, that is all too true.

Is there not a loss of faith in defending the value of some sort of musical 'high culture' as a whole from many quarters? Are promoters, commissioners, radio stations prepared to really take the risks they have done in the past in commissioning new work that will have more than a transitory impact?
Respectively, no, there isn't and not in all cases, I think.

Or is classical music in danger of being superceded by the work of Karl Jenkins (who now appears on the A-Level syllabus) and the like? If so, it might not have literally 'died', but it would certainly be brain-dead.
Nicely put! - and one can but sympathise with its present plight in the face of an environment in which Jenkins's work finds itself on an A-Level syllabus (a situation sufficiently suspect that I'd like to know just how and through whose auspices it got there) - but there's no evidence that such stuff is superseding, for example, the presentation of many of Carter's works in many countries this year; OK, I know it's all leading up to the celebration of 100 × 365 days(!), but I don't really think that the arguably unique prospect of the impending centenary of a still active composer would alone be sufficient to ensure so many performances, let alone so many audiences for them, however effectively it may be marketed. Who will remember Jenkins in 25 years' time? I cannot, of course, be certain, but I do know that if a composer really wants to court certain death, then he/she needs only win Masterprize.

What Lebrecht seems determined to ignore when he goes into his "death of classical music" mode (as he is all too often wont to do) is the consistent and continuing demand for it (and I don't mean for the likes of Jenkins, either) and, in any case, as I observed to someone recently, if classical music really is dead, who needs Norman Lebrecht to keep on writing about it?
« Last Edit: 16:43:14, 08-04-2008 by ahinton » Logged
Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #69 on: 08:23:20, 08-04-2008 »

For rather too long the A-Level set-works have been treated rather like the "Exam Papers" in "1066 & All That", viz  "Say what you admire about.... "

There is a case for saying that works listed for study should not be immune from (pertinent & informed) criticism.  If we are calling for music journalism/criticism of a more meaty calibre,  this should start in schools.  Hagiography is neither required or desirable in critics, and putting works on the set-piece list that provoke controversy and adverse reaction is not, of itself, giving them the "seal of approval".  A-Level English Lit has, in the past, asked candidates to analyse and comment upon the lines that begin:

O beautiful bridge of the silvery Tay!
Alas, I am very sorry to say
That ninety lives have been taken away  (etc)


One would hope - all due Caledonian pride notwithstanding, of course - that candidates didn't feel the need to be obsequiously complimentary about McGonagal's maudlin doggerel Wink
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pim_derks
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« Reply #70 on: 15:33:26, 08-04-2008 »

I think Karajan has special affinity for Sibelius and imo brings out all the poetry and atmosphere of the music - certainly not the cosmetic gloss usually associated the maestro !!

I couldn't agree with you more, offbeat! Karajan's Sibelius recordings are magnificent and Sibelius was a great admirer of those recordings himself. I like Karajan also in Bruckner and his Schoenberg recordings are really something special.
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Stanley Stewart
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« Reply #71 on: 21:02:06, 08-04-2008 »

I viewed the DVD of Robert Dornhelm's 'Karajan' last night.   Lots of good historical footage, although I yearned for Tony Palmer's more layered approach but the later part caught fire when Karajan's career had peaked and ill health was becoming evident.  Long serving artists, Christa Ludwig and Rene Kollo left the fold to join Leonard Bernstein in Israel.

Ludwig summarised:  'Karajan made music.  Bernstein was music.'     

Fascinating to watch both men in rehearsal, a mix of composure v angst.  Surprisingly, I warmed to Karajan's simplicity and directness of approach and often smiled at his sly wit.   It is now 20 years since he literally shuffled on to the platform to conduct the New Year's Day concert and I held my breath as I watched his obvious discomfort.   'Dr Theatre' must have accompanied him as sheer magic took over when he lifted his baton.

I also wanted to be reminded of the musical giants in the Karajan era so I took copies of Rudolf Bing's memoirs from my shelves: 

  '5000 Nights At The Opera' (1972)  Hamish Hamilton Ltd
  'A Knight At The Opera'  (1981)  Putnam

as I wanted to suss Sir Rudolf's assessment of HvK.

Bing was also an autocrat and known for his sharp tongue and acerbic wit.   When asked whether a certain prima donna was difficult, he responded:    "Not at all.  You put enough money in and glorious sound comes out."

He also relished the barbs directed at himself.  Actor Cyril Richard's description of him:   'Don't be misled - behind that cold, austere severe exterior, there beats a heart of stone.'

Bing was determined not to work under the Nazi regime and immediately accepted an unexpected offer from Fritz Busch, in 1934, to join John Christie's enterprise at Glyndebourne; subsequently he formed the Edinburgh Festival and this was followed by more than two decades at The Met, NY. 

Initially, Bing was unwilling to engage Karajan at The Met and this is documented in the memoirs.   It's unclear whether Karajan was the unnamed person indicated by Frau Kleiber, responding on behalf of Erich, after he declined a Met appointment during Bing's first season.

"Mrs Kleiber kindly passed on to me the names of three men her husband had suggested as possible substitutes for himself, none of them anywhere near his stature.   One of the three was an old acquaintance.   'This gentleman I know well,' I wrote Mrs Kleiber, 'and I was engaged with him for at least two years at the Stadtische Oper in Berlin.   He is a mediocre conductor but was an outstanding Nazi.   I am only prepared to consider the opposite mixture; a mediocre Nazi who is an outstanding conductor.'             Love it, love it!

In due course, Karajan delivered outstanding work at The Met and formal tributes arrived from the good and the great as Bing prepared his final departure.   A telegram was sent by HvK.

      'On this day, I feel particularly close to you as man, as artist and as
      initiator of a great time at the Metropolitan Opera.   Your life's work will
      not be forgotten and I look forward, hopefully, to seeing you soon.   All
      best also from my wife.   Yours,  Herbert von Karajan'

'I commented:  "My God, I have arrived."   But I was touched that this was not merely a formal wire but a warm, personal message'

Bing's health later declined, too, into the sad condition of senile dementia.

For a round, unvarnished portrait of Herbert von Karajan, I still return to Richard Osborne's biography, 'A Life in Music',  as I also hugely enjoy his recordings, too - lots of 'em.   There, I can't say 'nicer' than that.  As a moral judgement, I paraphrase  Hamlet:  "Leave him to heaven".
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Swan_Knight
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« Reply #72 on: 23:43:03, 08-04-2008 »

I'd certainly recommend that Osborne biography, Stanley: a pleasure to read, regardless of your feelings for HvK.
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Stevo
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« Reply #73 on: 14:56:41, 11-04-2008 »

Are audiences for classical music not getting older and not being replenished by younger ones? Do classical CDs have much of a future (at least those which are expensive to produce) in an age of mass copying and internet downloading? Is the whole system of public funding for music not beginning to disintegrate? Does classical music not (at least in the UK) get less coverage in the national press than ever before (and popular music more so)? Is there not a loss of faith in defending the value of some sort of musical 'high culture' as a whole from many quarters? Are promoters, commissioners, radio stations prepared to really take the risks they have done in the past in commissioning new work that will have more than a transitory impact?

Or is classical music in danger of being superceded by the work of Karl Jenkins (who now appears on the A-Level syllabus) and the like? If so, it might not have literally 'died', but it would certainly be brain-dead.
I think precisely the opposite is the case on every count, with the sole exception of the first point you make. Serious music has always had a greater appeal for older listeners. I don't think that has changed in the last half century.

Despite the widely-publicised (not least by Lebrecht) death of the CD, you can today buy a wider range of repertoire on CD than at any time in the history of recorded music. Add to that the fact that deleted CDs are now more accessible than ever before via Internet sellers. And all that before we talk about downloadable recordings.

Which disintegration are you referring to? The closure of major orchestras? Which ones? And why does London (to take one example) still have more world-class ensembles than any other city on earth? There may well be an argument for improving the teaching of music in schools, but I do not detect a root and branch disintegration of serious music performance in this country.

I think the 'loss of faith' you refer to is in fact an ever-growing diversification in serious music. As new generations of composers come along, they are progressively less in thrall to the Canon than their forebears. There are two ways of looking at this: the end of civilisation or the possibility for new, interesting kinds of serious music taking inspiration from previously-untapped resources.

As for Karl Jenkins... hasn't there always been lighter fare on offer? It would be a strange (and unfortunate) state of affairs if there wasn't middlebrow music on offer...

I actually believe if serious music was still operating as it did in, say, the 1950s, when wall-to-wall Beethoven and Brahms was de rigeur it would have atrophied long ago. It has moved with the times, and thrives as a consequence.
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #74 on: 15:04:02, 11-04-2008 »

There is a story about Westerners attending church in Russia in the Soviet era with a congregation made up solely of old women, (the only people with nothing to lose be being seen there by the KBG.

"What will happen when all these babushkas are dead?" he asked.

"There will be another generation of babushkas." came the reply.
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
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