Thank you very much, Ian Pace: quite so. The situation in Beethoven's day was totally different from that prevailing now. Now we are living in an absurd world with topsy-turvey values, in which "anything goes" in art (and in most other fields of existence) and in which political correctness prevails in "official" society, so that the veriest rubbish is acclaimed as great art and no-one is supposed to mention that the emperor isn't actually wearing any clothes!

Ian, I do think that might have been your most succinct and astute post ever.

Thanks

   It was not I who introduced the name of Beethoven here. And I don't agree that you can no longer have a composer who is a "heroic freelancer". What about Havergal Brian, for example? And I don't really like your style of analysis which seems a bit Marxist in orientation. "Art" is ultimately produced by "artists", not by social classes, or regimes. OK, I know that such can influence artists: the USSR is a good example (and ironic, if one does not subscribe to the Marxian ideal, that it probably produced the best 20th century music of the post WWII era). Beethoven did not like being told what to do by the upper classes (but then, who does?). And I don't agree that "modernism is a product of that situation". Modernism (I'm not sure what that term is supposed to mean) is more a result of technical innovation, the development of chromaticism within diatonic tonality until the old system collapsed altogether. Schonberg tried to rationalise that collapse with his invention of the "System of composing with twelve tones", and that did create a huge diversion amongst composers which I feel has ultimately proved to be sterile. All this started with my objecting to the promotion by the BBC and other arms of the British Musical Establishment (yes, I use capitals for that term) of "a god-awful racket masquerading as music". I still believe that far too much attention is paid to experimental music at the expense of more conservative idioms in new music: that is the main substance of my belief here.

I am trying to follow this discussion with interest. I did not know about composer Havergal Brian. I goggled and found out he wrote 32 symphonies. In our time this number is impressive. (And I was impressed with Schostakoviches 15).

People want different things from contemporary classical music. There are people who expect to be stimulated intellectually. There are people who want to be dazzled by colours and prefer to escape. There are so many different types of contemporary music. Now Tomas Ades writes very approachable type of music. There are minimalists of course. I find different developments very exciting.

USSR gave bad name to socialism. As far as I know Marx did not think Russia suitable for socialism. He did not think that it should be tried there. It was Lenin who argued that Russia was ready for socialism in one of his papers.

After living under socialism I can not say I think the system can work. May be active people should be incouraged. If everybody is equal makes society less vigorous. However, what it can be argued that what I lived under was not socialism.

It was strange coming to USA from Russia in 1976. Russian women were comparatively independent, had their careers (engineers, researchers, doctors). Many women in USSR still were housewives. I felt that we from USSR were much more liberated.
Still majority of powerful posts were for men and in fact women knew their place. I feel that they went further here now than in the old USSR. 
It is amazing to see what difference 30 years can make for women in the West.
However, meanwhile, back in Russia they are back in dark ages. I never thought it was possible and it is. This tells you a lot. There is no political correctness in Russia anymore. A woman after 30 is nothing. I read advertisement for a job where women olker than  25 need not apply in open text. And they treat women like meat openly. I found it so stressful.
It is only my impressions and may be Reiner can add something when he returns (I hope he will).

I don't know if Russia will ever join more civilized nations. Marx thought that socialism had to be tried first in West European countries. For whatever it is worth I feel that it was tried to a large degree because of competition with Russia. May be now it is a draw back time. I am glad I live in time when I can see that nothing is permanent on this earth, though it makes life harder often.

Yes, Tony. Doctors were not held in high regard, doctors like GPs. And they were not too knowledgeable too (I had a few close calls). This was a good job for women to work close to home and less hours than normal 40 a week.
Many people remember communism as easier time for themselves. There was a good programme on BBC about how the transition was done and how generation of people were wiped out by the government actions.
Yet, for others it was the great opportunity in life. It is always like that. I am sure Reiner could add something to the discussion. I disagreed with Russian policies and I left. While in the West I understood that life is not only roses here. It doesnot matter where one lives there are a lot of challenges, a lot of unpleasant irritating points and some positives. I met many people who were losers after the transition (majority).
Some people say that Russia made a bad name for socialism and is making a bad name for capitalism now. Somehow Yeltsin promised Swiss style capitalism within 6 months after starting his changes.

T-p, you seem to have a very measured, balanced and thoughtful view on the differences in life in the former communist countries, in the USA, and in Europe. I'd love to know more - maybe we should open another thread for that? I've come across quite a few people from Eastern Europe for whom all things to do with communism represent the devil incarnate, and who make George W. Bush or Ronald Reagan look quite middle-of-the-road in their politics. But I think some of them tend to be from the small numbers of families who have done very well out of the post-communist eras. Some others suggest that really power has moved from one bunch of gangsters to another.

That programme on Sunday that you were mentioning was very interesting indeed - do you think it gave an accurate portrayal of the situation (or was that after you left)?

*Sorry, just remembered you said on your last post that you left in 1976, so certainly after your time.