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Author Topic: Favourite instrument!  (Read 6202 times)
Tony Watson
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« Reply #120 on: 23:41:48, 18-04-2007 »

I wonder how much repertoire there is for quarter-tone music, or whatever it's called. The stringed instruments, trombones and singers can already cope with such notes so I wonder whether they feature more often.
« Last Edit: 14:16:13, 19-04-2007 by Tony Watson » Logged
aaron cassidy
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« Reply #121 on: 04:11:59, 19-04-2007 »

The stringed instruments, trombones and singers already everything they need for such much so I wonder whether they feature more often.

Who are you, Christopher Smart?

And the like?
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autoharp
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« Reply #122 on: 07:49:49, 19-04-2007 »

Is that supposed to be an answer to one of our most respected members ?
« Last Edit: 14:26:58, 19-04-2007 by autoharp » Logged
Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #123 on: 08:56:42, 19-04-2007 »

Talking of two-for-the-price-of-one instruments, here's the Italian zampogna bagpipe I mentioned on another thread



A forgotten English invention of the turn of the C19th was the Double Flageolet, patented in 1805, which became hugely popular, largely as an instrument for domestic music-making.  Albums of arrangements of popular songs, pot-pourris from ballets and operas etc appeared for the instrument.  The instrument was produced in descant, treble and tenor versions,  although ony the descant model enjoyed any real popularity (presumably because it was the cheapest, and most suited to younger hands).  Here is a whole flotilla of flageolets, some single and some double, in multiple sizes:



There were even pieces written specially for it, viz:

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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
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« Reply #124 on: 11:06:59, 19-04-2007 »

This is very interesting Reiner Returns (never to go away again).
This is a project for someone to investigate this kinds of instruments. They are not modern invention.

I am interested now in bagpipe tunes and other folk (mostly Irish) tunes. Some tunes are so ancient, but still survive.

Interesting thing in Irish music is that some of the tunes of baroque period are so Romantic sounding.

But I never heard of double stop wind instruments.
I saw an Irish harp in the museum that had additional strings. Were they sympathetically vibrating or did they play some additional notes on it I don't know. Also Irish played harp with their nails. They were the best harpists.

I wish I could invest more time in investigating this bagpipe pieces.
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Tony Watson
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« Reply #125 on: 14:18:09, 19-04-2007 »

What was at the back of my mind when I wrote reply #120 was a wonder why anyone would go to such lengths to design and build the quarter-tone double clarinet featured in reply #112 when it was possible to experiment with cross-fingerings and embouchure, or else take a purely pragmatic view and stick to instruments that could already get them.

But I applaud the man who made it. It restores my faith in human nature that someone, unwilling to compromise and knowing that his invention was very unlikely to make him rich, felt that such a venture was worthwhile. I am reminded of the quarter-tone keyboard that appeared somewhere on this MB a while ago. At least such instruments would be accurate and prove that composers were not just looking for some out-of-tune effect, I suppose. And, autoharp, thanks awfully for the very generous comment. I think aaron was picking up on a sentence which I should have checked before posting and which I have now edited.
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aaron cassidy
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« Reply #126 on: 17:57:05, 19-04-2007 »

Is that supposed to be an answer to one of our most respected members ?

It was a joke, and a reference to the Christopher Smart text used in Britten's Rejoice in the Lamb.  (http://www.its.caltech.edu/~tan/Britten/lambtext.html - scroll down to 'for the instruments are by their rhimes,')

It wasn't meant the least bit personally.


This board has gotten exceptionally jittery as of late, and there are personal attacks flying left and right, but this, I can assure you, was not one of them.  My apologies for the misunderstanding.

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Evan Johnson
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« Reply #127 on: 18:24:57, 19-04-2007 »


It was a joke, and a reference to the Christopher Smart text used in Britten's Rejoice in the Lamb.  (http://www.its.caltech.edu/~tan/Britten/lambtext.html - scroll down to 'for the instruments are by their rhimes,')

It wasn't meant the least bit personally.


Well, I thought it was funny.  Anyway, to answer the original question, partially, there is a repertoire dating back about 100 years in quarter- and other equally tempered microtones to be played on standard instruments; the vast majority of the early examples are for strings, of course. Most notable example is a brief passage in Berg's Chamber Concerto, and there are also the works (in third and sixth tones as well) of Alois Haba from around the same time.  Also a couple works (including a famous one by Ives) for quarter-tone-retuned piano.

In more recent decades there has been an explosion of interest in various sorts of small intervals. All the instruments of the orchestra can, given players who know what they are doing, reliably produce microtones (although timbre and digital flexibility may vary), except those (like the harp and tuned percussion) that would need to be retuned for the purpose.  But they often now are.  And as soon as you scratch the surface of the harmonic possibilities of non-chromatic music you get over your head: tempered microintervals, alternate equal temperaments with more than twelve pitches to the octave, just intonation, Pythagorean and other tunings, etc. etc. etc. You think you've seen stylistic squabbles, you ain't seen nuthin' until you've seen microtonalists of various camps go at each other.

Recommended listening, anyone?
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #128 on: 18:35:17, 19-04-2007 »

For just intonation here goes Ollie the Stuck Record again:



For Reiner - how might one come by a double flageolet nowadays? (Hoping the answer isn't 'spend a lot of money on an antique one' and that there are some builders out there making them.)

(Er, and for Aaron, a smiley might have been a good idea with the Christopher Smart thing... Wink )
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aaron cassidy
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« Reply #129 on: 18:43:51, 19-04-2007 »

Recommended listening, anyone?

http://www.amazon.com/Couperin-LApoth%C3%A9ose-Lulli-Christie-Rousset/dp/B00005B6RN

http://www.amazon.com/Froberger-Ou-lintranquillit%C3%A9-Johann-Jacob/dp/B0000DETAZ/ref=sr_1_24/104-3971321-5248707?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1177004130&sr=1-24

http://www.amazon.com/Missa-Cantilena/dp/B000005E50/ref=sr_1_1/104-3971321-5248707?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1177004215&sr=1-1

 Wink


I would imagine that to many listeners, the tunings used in these performances would sound just as much like 'microtonal' tunings as, say, what one would find in Haba, much less someone like Ben Johnston, Grisey, Ferneyhough, Lucier, late 70s/80s Feldman, etc., etc.

[I'll see if I can't find some links to those discs that include sound file excerpts, and will then update this post if I'm successful in my search ...]
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #130 on: 18:45:58, 19-04-2007 »

I wonder how much repertoire there is for quarter-tone music, or whatever it's called. The stringed instruments, trombones and singers can already cope with such notes so I wonder whether they feature more often.
Nowadays there's a huge amount of repertoire. Various woodwind players have worked out fingerings over the years which have made quarter-tones available across nearly the whole range (the lowest notes are most often the exception). Brass players have worked out how to use tuning slides and extra valves - the horn player in my ensemble has a horn with the stopping valve tuned to give quarter-tones. Indeed sometimes quarter-tones are more practical in woodwinds than in strings - string players have to do it by ear whereas wind players often have stable fingerings (and are in any case more likely to have a tuning machine on the stand!).
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aaron cassidy
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« Reply #131 on: 18:49:04, 19-04-2007 »

(Er, and for Aaron, a smiley might have been a good idea with the Christopher Smart thing... Wink )

Yeah, I know.  I didn't think it necessary at the time, but it was late and I was a good 3/4 of a bottle of wine in the hole, so ...  Not really my brightest moment.
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #132 on: 18:49:51, 19-04-2007 »

Oh well, another fave while I'm here. I think I posted it on Now Spinning or Music Before Bedtime or one of those a little while back.

http://r3ok.myforum365.com/index.php?topic=137.msg19323#msg19323

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oliver sudden
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« Reply #133 on: 18:51:06, 19-04-2007 »

(Er, and for Aaron, a smiley might have been a good idea with the Christopher Smart thing... Wink )

Yeah, I know.  I didn't think it necessary at the time, but it was late and I was a good 3/4 of a bottle of wine in the hole, so ...  Not really my brightest moment.

(Well anyway you've apologised and no one's kicking up a fuss so let's just not tell anyone and everything will be fine. Wink)
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Tony Watson
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« Reply #134 on: 19:18:55, 19-04-2007 »

I'm perfectly happy and no apologies are necessary, even though I did not understand the remark at first. I did write a stinker of a sentence that barely made sense, though, and that was the result of being tired and slightly emotional.

I find this a very interesting thread. My only disappointment is that it's not easy to find examples of what these exotic instruments sound like. I looked at the website on the aulochrome (reply #114) and I thought it would have been much better if there had been a sound file to listen to.
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