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Author Topic: Elgar's 0th symphony aka Organ Snarter  (Read 360 times)
FisherMartinJ
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« on: 21:50:23, 07-03-2007 »

I posted the message below on the official UK R3 boards under the mistaken impression I'd hear the work on Rob C's breakfast programme. In fact it was Jonathan Swain's CD Masters. But of course there isn't a board any more on which to discuss that programme, is there? Angry So I'll try here instead. haven't found a separate for the programme - do please correct me and repost his message if I'm wrong.

>>I caught the start of the Gordon Jacob orchestration on RC CD Masters this morning and was reminded that an organ scholar once told me that Elgar couldn't have been much of an organist by the way he wrote big minor chords in the Sonata in such a way that the major 3rd overtones of the tonic would clash horribly with the minor 3rds of the chord as written. I think said o-s was pretty anti-Elgar but is there anything in what he says? At first sight it would suggest that you shouldn't write minor chords in organ works full stop (bye bye a few Bach masterpieces then?  Wink). Or is the point a subtler one about the voicing (spacing) of the chords?<<
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'the poem made of rhubarb in the middle and the surround of bubonic marzipan'
trained-pianist
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« Reply #1 on: 22:11:09, 07-03-2007 »

I tried to listen to the piece you are talking about. I understand it is Elgar organ sonata orchestrated. I could not find it on listen again facility. There is no list of pieces they played on the programme.
It is disappointing as they used to be good with information and listen again.
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John W
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« Reply #2 on: 23:31:12, 07-03-2007 »

..... it was Jonathan Swain's CD Masters. But of course there isn't a board any more on which to discuss that programme, is there? Angry So I'll try here instead. haven't found a separate for the programme - do please correct me and repost his message if I'm wrong.

FMJ,

The information I have is that CD Masters ends soon (15 March?) so a separate Topic/Board was not created here.

CMoR3 is the right place till then Smiley

After 15 March I believe we will hear a new programme on Radio 3, Classical Collection (10am-noon) with various presenters including Sarah Walker.


John W
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #3 on: 23:51:12, 07-03-2007 »

Why did my heart sink when I first heard that news? CD Masters is a clever title, and the programme has amply lived up to expectation. Classical Collection sounds so suspiciously like one of those boxed sets advertised in colour supplements ('The only Classical bits you'll ever need on two luxuriously packaged discs...') that I fear it signals another trivialisation: vegetarian music broadcasting; music with all the meat taken out.

Come on R3, shoot yourself in the other foot, why don't you?
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reiner_torheit
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« Reply #4 on: 23:53:07, 07-03-2007 »

Soon to be retitled "Now That's What I CALL Classical Music"...
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They say travel broadens the mind - but in many cases travel has made the mind not exactly broader, but thicker.
Sydney Grew
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« Reply #5 on: 00:53:49, 08-03-2007 »

"Or is the point a subtler one about the voicing (spacing) of the chords?" writes a Member.

We do not know about the specifics of writing for the organ, and cannot contribute anything on that specific point.

But the texture and voicing of music, or the distribution of the parts, is tremendously important for the effect of harmony.

Schubert was one composer who was always very careful about this, and it shows, and it is effective. We think that it will be evident especially to men who PLAY rather than listen to his music.

Another interesting composer in this regard was Bach himself. So often - in the keyboard concertos for instance - we find him moving to a chord the distribution of which is rather different from the normal expected case, but we know he means to do it, and what a pleasant sensation he gives us all thereby!

At least two systems of musical analysis have grown up - one for harmonic music (the "transpositionally equivalent sonority") and one for the pan-tonal (called "Forte's normal order of a pitch-class set"). They involve the picking out of the simultaneously sounding notes and arranging them in a fixed prescribed close order, which procedure is of assistance in their categorization and comparison. But important textural information is lost thereby and the "equivalence" is more imaginary than real.

Specifically, what matters is the way composers cleverly take into account the effect of all the partials and overtones in combination, is it not? - rather than the effect of simply the explicit struck or sounded notes.

And the disregard of voicing is one of the many problems inherent in simple-minded serialism.
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FisherMartinJ
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« Reply #6 on: 15:55:15, 08-03-2007 »

Thanks for that Syd - you are way beyond the limits of my technical musical knowledge on voicing of chords, but I recognise that what you say makes sense.

But does anyone know anything about the specific query about minor-key chords on organs? Are there any organists out there? Is there an 'Organ Oliver '(Latry??) out there to do the same stuff as PianoPeter?
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'the poem made of rhubarb in the middle and the surround of bubonic marzipan'
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