Ian,

You could compare that to RVW writing English Folksong Suite, or Dvorak's Slavonic Dances, Shostakovich Jazz Suites ......

John,

I can't see that that's the case at all: in none of the three cases that you mention is there the slightest connection with what's happening in the example that Ian's citing. You're making the classic error of assuming that the situations are parallel without putting any historical context into play whatsoever, particularly the commercial aspect, which is the overriding consideration in any contemporary cross-over venture: I rather think that the majority of members here would agree that RVW, Dvořak and DSCH were primarily concerned with artistic matters rather than making a quick buck by churning out 'here today, gone tomorrow' schlock.

(Written before I'd seen martle's post).
(And spelling mistake corrected.)

I'm on-side with the rest of what you say here, Ian, but are you sure this is really the case?  It might be from a eurocentric viewpoint, of course, but in world terms I am not so sure.  If we are just counting titles rather than venturing into the thornier issue of quality, influence, screenings, etc, then Bollywood out-produces the anglophone film industry by a massive proportion. If screenings are factored in, then Bollywood scores even higher.  Film-making in Latin America is also vigorously productive, but I don't know the figures.

In terms of songs, there are lots of parts of the world where angolophone hegemony doesn't hold sway either. Down my way, there's 7-8 local hits for every 1 Kylie Minogue on the radio.  MTV began broadcasting in Russia, but audience figures remains slug-like until they dropped rebroadcasting their German-assembled output, and produced Russia-specific output that featured around 85% Russian/Ukrainian/Serbian/German/French/Spanish artists.  I think this was frankly a matter of taste, although some element of rejection of New World Order values, "culture" and domination might also be involved.  I think it's mostly taste, though - in Ukraine, which is a US ally, the balance of Ukrainian groups on MTV is even higher than 85%.  "Soft power" is clearly failing in the ex-USSR.

We'll risk a thwack from the Mods for wandering off topic here, I fear   I think a bit of an idealisation is exactly right. Most people will involuntarily talk-up the good sides of their country anyhow, and I think many people from whatever ex-USSR country do feel a rather snubbed pride that they are anxious to express.  I am not really sure about any "superiority" of instrumental teaching in the USSR, but I think it's true to say that access to it was probably more widely available, and less reliant on the financial abilities of parents to afford it (although purchasing an instrument was still a barrier for many, and the State didn't help on this - except for a tiny echelon of outstanding string-players who might have had loan of a fine instrument from the Kremlin Collection). Where I think there is a shard of truth amidst the rosy nostalgia is the place that "culture" had, and has, in society.  Of course, there are well-known socio-political reasons why this is so - primarily the dual force of the "culture in place of religion" nostrum of the earliest decades of the soviet era, allied with views of Lenin, Kollontai, Krupskaya, & Co that the cultural pursuits that they liked personally (foreign literature in the original language, the cinema, the Italian & French opera and such Russian opera as could be shorn of Tsarist references etc, orchestral concerts etc) was morally and socially improving, and therefore had an obligatory place in the upbringing of all children. 

This may sound like a rose-tinted view, but it's perpetuated in the structure of anything funded by the Russian State today.  All children learn two foreign languages at school.  Any concert-hall or opera/ballet-theatre which receives State or Civic funding (ie all of them) is obliged to make 15% of the seats available for free to educational and social organisations, and many in fact give a higher percentage.  At any performance at the Bolshoi (except maybe opening nights) you'll see school groups with their teachers (and they are a model of good behaviour, it should be said).  But a stranger sight to EU-european eyes is that you might find a battalion of conscripts from the Paratroop Corps slotted into the Amphitheatre seats for EVGENY ONEGIN, in parade uniform. Their immaculate behaviour might, of course, be part of their military discipline, but in general they display a keen interest in the performance. (I feel sorry for these poor kids though - their pay as conscripts won't even run to buying themselves a cold drink in the interval).  Several opera performers I know do acts in nightclubs, and its the managements of those clubs who are actively seeking "some culture" on the program.  Yes, much of it is hit numbers from CARMEN etc, but one girl is doing Bellini and Vivaldi - between rock group sets   One enterprising group are even doing Stravinsky's MAVRA in night-clubs

We've covered this pretty exhaustively before, John: there's very little evidence that people who listen to that sort of music do move into deeper waters: it's not designed to foster serious listening, after all. To take an analogy closer to home, what you're positing is similar to suggesting that those who like 'light music' should eventually be able to come to terms with more serious contemporary music. To make either move requires an intellectual realignment and learning a way of more involved listening, which far from everybody appears able (or willing) to do.

I had very little exposure to 'serious' music as a child though my father had an ear for Handel and such and light music/singers in Scotland. Long holidays and BBC2 (Previn etc) got me interested in actually buying music other than 'pop' in the 1970s but listening hours remained firmly on the lighter side and indeed (as some will know here), I became a researcher into early jazz and dance band music. Enjoyment of serious music has always been there, attending concerts and buying lots of vinyl after CDs came in. As regards radio listening hours today things have swayed significantly from the Radio 2 schedule to the Radio 3 schedule only in the last six years or so (ClassicFM only gets a look-in late evenings).

So I think your

is possible, and maybe more so today with the improved accessiblity of serious music.

Unfortunately our media managers today, whether they like serious music or not, are too focussed on results and listener figures so that they won't give enough time for 'intellectual alignment', a listener for 5mins = a listener for 3hours, so people just get quick bursts of music where hours are required.

John W

I didn't have much exposure to classical music at home in my childhood and adolescence but came to it via the light music played on Eric Robinson's programmes, which I first caught on to when I was about 19.  Curiosity gradually drove me towards heavier fare and the standard classical repertoire is the backbone of my CD collection but I've never lost my affection for the pieces by Eric Coates, Robert Farnon, Haydn Wood, Ronald Binge et al that I came to know in my early adulthood.  And it's all complemented by my undying love of sixties pop.  Why shouldn't the same person appreciate several genres?

Ian.

I am not sure that inferences should be drawn from that.  There's a yob element (Rob G and his followers) on TOP who love to wind-up others with their bovver-boy hatred of music post-Elgar - part of this is allied to an unpleasant chauvinist gaggle who promote British music over others for proto-nationalist reasons.  We shouldn't imagine that this loathsome tribe represent a true cross-section of views.

I know quite a number of people who have slowly drifted into more serious classical music through the "light music" route.  I think they are often typically rather awed by what they've found and are walking on eggs with it (fearful of the kind of bullying harumphing arrogance they'll certain taste if they dare post on TOP) and therefore don't, by-and-large, post their views there.   They often want a bit of guidance along the lines of "If I liked Bach's Brandenburg Concerto No 2, what else would be good to try?".  I've quietly led my friend Ron from "The Four Seasons" on to symphonies by Beethoven, EVGENY ONEGIN, and LADY MACBETH OF MTSENSK.  He still likes John Cougar Mellencamp, but that's not a crime (yet)    I've generally found that live performance is watch switches people on to new stuff - seeing the commitment and feeling the intensity of concentration that goes into a DSCH symphony or a Rachmaninoff piano recital is vastly more rewarding than shoving another hockey-puck into Mr Twirly.