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Author Topic: ELGAR Diary Notes  (Read 2014 times)
smittims
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Posts: 258


« Reply #15 on: 10:16:25, 28-05-2007 »

The Kingdom was not written as a contractual obligation (nor was anything else he wrote, I think , apart from some of his very late songs) . It was 'Part III'of the Apostles,which he could not finish in time for the 1903 Festival.

I know personal feelings run high in matters of musical taste  so I will simply say as someone who has known and loved it for forty years that,along with Sir Adrian Boult and  some others , I consider it a beautiful masterpiece, a great work. .

Elgar was a Catholic,but not a devout one. In later life he admitted privately that he beleived there was no life beyond the grave. Although very interested in theology and Bible scholarship,I think he was more agnostic than Christian.
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trained-pianist
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« Reply #16 on: 10:23:29, 28-05-2007 »

Smittims, Now I remember that my friend told me that Elgar was catholic. This is why they would be interested in his music even more here. But as you say tastes are different for many people and some might find his music too sentimental (for an English person).
Thank you Smittims and marbleflugel,
I think you are right. There are many books about Elgar. I think they even have some biographies about him in Public Libraries here. I will have to check for myself.
There are enthusiasts of his music here and many people like him and his music. My friend often talks about him. He knows a lot about his time and his music. I can ask him as well as read books that you suggested.
The problem here is that CD shops are very bad and there is no music department in the area. University Library has practically no music books, scores or anything. It is hard to do everything yourself.
I can explore his chamber music all right, but his symphonies and oratorio (how many does he have?) are more diffecult to manage because of luck of time and resources.
His music is on the sillabus of violin exams (don't remember grades). I played many of his easier pieces that are probably more popular.
Thank you for helping me understand.
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autoharp
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Posts: 2778



« Reply #17 on: 10:34:23, 28-05-2007 »

I have to say that I have never been an Elgar fan - (the odd Pomp and Circumstance, perhaps) - much of it I find tedious and annoying. At University, my tutor, having registered my distaste, told me that there were two works which I probably would like - the 2nd movement of the violin concerto and Falstaff. He was entirely correct. I have a feeling that support for Sir Edward is rather mixed on this board (?)
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trained-pianist
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« Reply #18 on: 10:38:54, 28-05-2007 »

I understand you, autoharp.
This was my first reaction. However, it helps to be with people who love it because you can get inspired or at least understand what they find attractive.
His music like all other needs getting used to.
Even now I some times (often) feel that it is too much for me. but I keep reminding myself that he was a late Romantic (when they were taking things too far) or I say to myself he is like Gries and Sibelius.
I don't know if I explained well what I feel.
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A
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Posts: 4808



« Reply #19 on: 11:02:16, 28-05-2007 »

I too have my favourite Elgar pieces. I enjoy playing 'Intro and allegro' and the 'Serenade' I am fond of Gerontious and the string quartet and especially the piano quintet ( which I find quite mind blowing to play)

I just wonder why, at the moment, it seems to me that the second symphony is more important than the first. I have played it recently (over 3 years) twice and I am to play it next season in my new orchestra. The first I have never played  and I have to say I prefer it.

Any comments please?

A
« Last Edit: 13:04:04, 28-05-2007 by A » Logged

Well, there you are.
smittims
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Posts: 258


« Reply #20 on: 12:33:03, 28-05-2007 »

The popularity of the two symphonies has alternated . The First had a hundred performances in its first year, while  the  Second was neglected untilBoitonducteda landmark performancein 1918.Then it was recorded twice before the First Symphony received its first recording.

Recently Tadaaki Otaaka and the BBC Welsh S.O. made the First  a sort of party piece and it was broadcast a lot.

I think Boult preferred the Second and made five commercial recordings of it compared with three of the First. 

I like them both equally. Vaughan Williams used to tease Michael Kennedy by threatening to make an 'Omnibus' version of them keeping all his favourite bits.

I think the First is marginally more forward-looking and optimistic,the second marginally more elegaic.
Maybe it suits the mood of the nation at this  uncomfortable and ambiguous stage of our history.
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marbleflugel
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WWW
« Reply #21 on: 20:07:27, 28-05-2007 »

That's a nice RVW story, Smittims, and Thank You for correcting me. I wonder-although Tod Handley is pretty much unassailable I'd have thought- if its a matter of how a piece like The Kingdom is done. I don't think conventional piety would work, cf perhaps something like a Child of Our Time, but Elgar is on such familiar and unpretentious terms with the numinous. For me I'ts the numinous evoked by a good pint or an English Rose.
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'...A  celebrity  is someone  who didn't get the attention they needed as an adult'

Arnold Brown
offbeat
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Posts: 270



« Reply #22 on: 21:46:05, 28-05-2007 »

to Stanley
You mention Savage Messiah - loved this film especially the way Russell uses Debussy in it - think some of the other feature films (lisztomania in particular) were rather over the top Undecided
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roslynmuse
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« Reply #23 on: 23:51:08, 28-05-2007 »

I must admit to being a Kingdom fan, initially through a most illuminating rehearsal with Handley c1991, subsequently through working on it on two other occasions. There are perhaps fewer of the great Gerontius type moments for the choir - the soprano soloist has the most glorious music - but I do prefer it to The Apostles.

Symphonies - Smittims got it right, I think - there are hugely original things in No 1 (not least the key scheme); No 2 is my favourite though, for the way it conveys a mood of grief under a facade of optimism. (Incidentally, compare the very opening of the Elgar with the wonderful outburst near the end of the 3rd mt of Mahler 4).

I think there's hardly an Elgar piece I don't like, although some strike me as belonging to the category of pieces best appreciated "from the inside" - I would much rather play the Violin Sonata (piano part!) or many of the songs than listen to them, I think because I always feel Elgar is writing in a private language that makes an intermediary (ie other performers!) feel like an intruder. I suppose the orchestral music and big choral works are more public, but even so there are moments in both concertos which are almost too painful to share with anyone else.

The Elgar piece for all those who think they DON'T like him has to be In The South - a joy from beginning to end, and not a handlebar moustache in sight!
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marbleflugel
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WWW
« Reply #24 on: 01:33:16, 29-05-2007 »

Ros, thanks for your  on Bly/Jung@Harbison(my response in quote box)...and you're exactly right in your description of 2. Nordic performances seem to make that pain speak in an Ingmar Bergman sort of way...all in
all a long way from triumphalism, yet the humility of the man bears witness to his own times and as you say Smittims, ours too. I have been listening to wgbh today online, they played VW3/Haitink/Roocroft earlier,
Strowacewski/Minnesota in Tomveau de Couperin and currently Copland 3 (really coherent reading) . I mention this because the feel of the programming essays that 'optimism with grief underpinning' and elgar 2 amidst
labour day/ military commemorations in states , beyond  crass Bushism, and I got the feeling that Elgar prefigures all this in his later phase from 2 onwards.
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'...A  celebrity  is someone  who didn't get the attention they needed as an adult'

Arnold Brown
Sydney Grew
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« Reply #25 on: 03:42:23, 29-05-2007 »

. . . military commemorations . . .

Constantly Elgar in his life responded to the excitement of patriotic feeling, and his military music is as bright as an almanac picture. But when in 1914 the reality of war became apparent, and the power that lies beyond local patriotism was felt, he produced war-music of so fine an emotional truth as to be probably unique. There are a few touches of unnecessary realism in "To Women," as at the words "pressed home," and the quotation from "Gerontius," which in "The Fourth of August" identifies the Germans with the demons, is too intellectual to pass into that subconsciousness where Art has its being; but as a whole the trilogy of pieces to Binyon's poems represents ardour of the warlike type carried to the finest possible point. There were fourteen years between this music and the march that contains the tune now used for "Land of Hope and Glory" (the Military March dates from 1901, and the "Land of Hope and Glory" melody was passed into the "Coronation Ode" in 1902).
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #26 on: 04:00:20, 29-05-2007 »

. . . a late Romantic (when they were taking things too far) . . .

As we see the matter Madame T-P it is never possible to take things "too far" in Art. Art is of its very nature built from extremes of intensity not from happy media. To put it another way the only true moderation is the all-out.

And in regard to Sir Edward, we must remember that through all the years preceding "Gerontius" he was teaching many hours a week for a living. He was not teaching young geniuses how to compose, or perfecting the powers of young prodigies. Such teaching might have been a joy to him, its own reward. Actually he was teaching just ordinary young folk, as we Members ourselves once were. When we think that, in order to fulfil his responsibilities, he occupied those gloriously impatient young years of life with many many hours of the drudgery of ordinary teaching, whereas all the while he might have made more money by scribbling pot-boilers at three guineas a time - pieces that are published by the thousand every year, and which some clever musicians provide for publishers under a dozen different fictitious names - we cannot believe that he produced large oratorios and cantatas, delicate violin pieces, earnest Church music, and very poetical choral numbers, for any reason other than the artistic one. Elgar was not the only great musician whose first works are different from his last, or whose final development was apparently retarded; the greatest of French musicians, César Franck, was ten years older than Elgar when he arrived finally at himself, and the greater part of his first group of compositions is almost more restricted to the power only to "please."
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trained-pianist
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« Reply #27 on: 07:33:04, 29-05-2007 »

Mr Sidney Grew,
I like what you write about art and that it is built from extremes of intensity.
What do you think about R Strauss. I always think that he took harmonic language too far.
I love Romantic music generally and I think of Elgar like a Romantic composer.
For a while I tried to supress this love of Romantic music because my friends thought Romantic composers were much too indulged in their feelings.
Now I try to appreciate each style without judging it.
Thank you for your interesting contribution.
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Janthefan
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Posts: 812



« Reply #28 on: 12:35:57, 29-05-2007 »

Thankyou, Stanley S for pointing this film out....I was only talking about it a couple of weeks ago to a friend who is just discovering Elgar. I last watched it back in about 1984, when it was shown on television.

I'm not mad keen on Elgar's music, but this is a beautiful film, and I look forward to seeing it again. I would probably have failed to notice it was on if you hadn't mentioned it.

Thanks again. x Jan x
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Live simply that all may simply live
Stanley Stewart
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Posts: 1090


Well...it was 1935


« Reply #29 on: 16:47:18, 29-05-2007 »

# 28      My pleasure, Jan.     BBC 4 will show the remastered film on Saturday when the contrasting black and white photography should enhance the intensity.  Ken Russell did an updated colour version for the South Bank Show, some years ago, but the original Monitor version is the one to go for.   Should be a special treat.

All good wishes,        Stanley
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