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The Radio 3 Boards > General Chat > The Coffee Bar > The Pedantry Thread
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Author Topic: The Pedantry Thread  (Read 14586 times)
Baz
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« Reply #570 on: 11:59:27, 12-05-2008 »
Quote from: John W on 09:55:10, 12-05-2008
Quote from: Baz on 08:42:27, 12-05-2008
As an example we might note that the opposite of 'flammable' (i.e. a tendency to combustion) is therefore 'inflammable' (i.e. fireproof).

Eh, sorry Baz you are wrong on this occasion.

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However, 'inflammable' has now come to mean 'combustible' (the opposite of what it used to be),

It never had the opposite meaning.

Inflammable is from the French, and France were ahead of the game, decades ago, when it came to classification and legislating for the transport of dangerous goods in Europe, so for a while UK adopted their word inflammable (which means same as English flammable) and the ADR laws.

Nowadays the ADR laws have been adopted across the EU, and the current English translation of ADR has adopted the English spelling/word flammable :

http://www.unece.org/trans/danger/publi/adr/adr2007/English/02-0%20E_Part%202.pdf

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This can be a matter of life and death.  Huh Huh Huh Huh

It could have been if people had perpetuated the myth about inflammable/flammable being two different things  Roll Eyes

Sorry to burst your smugness bubble Wink

John W

Cor! What a really 'interesting' read that was! I note from the following...

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Substances and articles (except aerosols) of Class 2 are assigned to one of the following
groups according to their hazardous properties, as follows:
A asphyxiant;
O oxidizing;
F flammable;
T toxic;
TF toxic, flammable;
TC toxic, corrosive;
TO toxic, oxidizing;
TFC toxic, flammable, corrosive;
TOC toxic, oxidizing, corrosive.
For gases and gas mixtures presenting hazardous properties associated with more than one
group according to the criteria, the groups designated by letter T take precedence over all
other groups. The groups designated by letter F take precedence over the groups designated
by letters A or O.
NOTE 1: In the UN Model Regulations, the IMDG Code and the ICAO Technical
Instructions, gases are assigned to one of the following three divisions, based on the primary
hazard:
Division 2.1: flammable gases (corresponding to the groups designated by the capital
letter F);
Division 2.2: non-flammable, non-toxic gases (corresponding to the groups designated
by the capital letters A or O);
Division 2.3: toxic gases (corresponding to the groups designated by the capital letter
T i.e. T, TF, TC, TO, TFC and TOC).

...that not only does 'flammable' mean 'inflammable', but also that 'non-flammable' now means 'non-inflammable'.

If only those bloody Eurocrats knew anything at all about ENGLISH this sort of thing would never happen.

Baz  Cool Cool Cool
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John W
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« Reply #571 on: 13:00:02, 12-05-2008 »
Quote from: Baz on 11:59:27, 12-05-2008

Cor! What a really 'interesting' read that was! I note from the following...

Eh, you actually READ it??  Cheesy

I'm offended, thought you would at least take my word for it  Cry

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If only those bloody Eurocrats knew anything at all about ENGLISH this sort of thing would never happen.

Well we have to blame the Romans, according to the Merriam-Webster dictionary

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inflammable

Main Entry: in·flam·ma·ble 
Pronunciation: \in-ˈfla-mə-bəl\
Function: adjective
Etymology: French, from Medieval Latin inflammabilis, from Latin inflammare
Date: 1605
1 : flammable
2 : easily inflamed, excited, or angered : irascible
— in·flam·ma·bil·i·ty  \-ˌfla-mə-ˈbi-lə-tē\ noun
— inflammable noun
— in·flam·ma·ble·ness  \-ˈfla-mə-bəl-nəs\ noun
— in·flam·ma·bly  \-blē\ adverb

but, look there was an attempt to replace it in 1813  Cheesy

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flammable 
   
Main Entry: flam·ma·ble 
Pronunciation: \ˈfla-mə-bəl\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin flammare to flame, set on fire, from flamma
Date: 1813
: capable of being easily ignited and of burning quickly

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richard barrett
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« Reply #572 on: 13:09:37, 12-05-2008 »
Quote from: John W on 09:55:10, 12-05-2008
Sorry to burst your smugness bubble Wink

Dunno about bursting, looks more like blowing a bigger one.

The mistake is to think that the prefix in- necessarily has a negating effect, which in very many cases it doesn't.
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John W
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« Reply #573 on: 13:17:18, 12-05-2008 »
Quote from: richard barrett on 13:09:37, 12-05-2008
Quote from: John W on 09:55:10, 12-05-2008
Sorry to burst your smugness bubble Wink

Dunno about bursting, looks more like blowing a bigger one.

Well, this is the Pedantry thread after all   Grin

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The mistake is to think that the prefix in- necessarily has a negating effect, which in very many cases it doesn't.

Thank you Richard, I didn't point out that mistake to Baz  Smiley
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #574 on: 13:24:09, 12-05-2008 »
Semantically, the 'in' in inflammable was never a negative in any case, as may be seen by considering its relationship to inflame, inflammation and inflammatory, not to mention other similarly derived words such as inspired (negative uninspired), and intelligible (negative unintelligible).
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Baz
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« Reply #575 on: 15:29:48, 12-05-2008 »
OK folks! I know that the Latin flammare means 'to kindle'; and I also know that the Latin inflammare also (likewise) means 'to kindle'.

The reason is that the Latin prefix 'in-' has two separate functions: a) as a preposition with the accusative or ablative it means 'with'; while b) as an inseparable particle prefixed to an adjective it negates or reverses the meaning.

Without a degree in Etymology, it is not always clear from which of the two different meanings the prefix has been inherited into modern languages. In the first meaning (above) it must be concluded that 'inflammare' means 'to kindle with fire', while in the second meaning we can cite the Latin word 'inaequalis' meaning 'unequal' (i.e. the negative of 'aequalis').

Baz
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John W
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« Reply #576 on: 19:40:14, 12-05-2008 »
Glad you are getting this sorted in your mind now Baz  Smiley

Yes, the prefix -in in inflammable is not the Latin negative prefix -in (which is related to the English -un and appears in such words as indecent and inglorious) but its -in is an intensive prefix derived from the Latin preposition in.

In the European professional/technical world the word inflammable is thankfully losing usage, but unfortunately marketing people and Americans are more difficult to educate.
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increpatio
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« Reply #577 on: 19:44:32, 12-05-2008 »
kevlar undies for me from now on: can't afford to take chances nowadays...
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #578 on: 20:42:18, 13-05-2008 »
Quote from: John W on 19:40:14, 12-05-2008
Yes, the prefix -in in inflammable is not the Latin negative prefix -in (which is related to the English -un and appears in such words as indecent and inglorious) but its -in is an intensive prefix derived from the Latin preposition in.

In the European professional/technical world the word inflammable is thankfully losing usage, but unfortunately marketing people and Americans are more difficult to educate.
If we're talking prefixes...

for -in read in- and for -un read un-.  Wink
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John W
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« Reply #579 on: 21:00:45, 13-05-2008 »
Well spotted Ollie  Cheesy

I cut'n'pasted/edited that from can't-remember-now and didn't spot that!
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George Garnett
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« Reply #580 on: 09:06:44, 15-05-2008 »
Quote from: Reiner Torheit on 07:41:59, 15-05-2008
Amneris was cut (!) from the ending.  Mind you, she'd been left standing stationery in the Judgement Scene



                 




                                      ... signifying that, by then, the writing was on the wall? 
« Last Edit: 09:59:29, 15-05-2008 by George Garnett » Logged
Ruby
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« Reply #581 on: 15:10:04, 16-05-2008 »
Quote from: John W on 19:40:14, 12-05-2008
Glad you are getting this sorted in your mind now Baz  Smiley

Yes, the prefix -in in inflammable is not the Latin negative prefix -in (which is related to the English -un and appears in such words as indecent and inglorious) but its -in is an intensive prefix derived from the Latin preposition in.

In the European professional/technical world the word inflammable is thankfully losing usage, but unfortunately marketing people and Americans are more difficult to educate.
Thanks for that explanation.  Ironically I had mentioned this oddity on another pedants' thread on another message board, but nobody could explain it. You are all very thorough though - like it!
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Turfan Fragment
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« Reply #582 on: 23:02:07, 16-05-2008 »
There are OTHER pedantry threads? I thought we were the pioneers.  Cry
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time_is_now
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« Reply #583 on: 02:01:35, 29-05-2008 »
Quote from: Ruby on 15:10:04, 16-05-2008
Thanks for that explanation.  Ironically I had mentioned this oddity on another pedants' thread on another message board, but nobody could explain it.
That would be 'ironically' in the Alanis sense? Wink
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Ruby2
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« Reply #584 on: 15:50:41, 29-05-2008 »
Quote from: time_is_now on 02:01:35, 29-05-2008
Quote from: Ruby on 15:10:04, 16-05-2008
Thanks for that explanation.  Ironically I had mentioned this oddity on another pedants' thread on another message board, but nobody could explain it.
That would be 'ironically' in the Alanis sense? Wink
There are arguments to suggest that both uses are aceptable:

"...incongruity between what might be expected and what actually occurs; "the irony of Ireland's copying the nation she most hated"..."

That said, I might have avoided this whole thing if I had said "As it happens" instead; granted it wasn't the best use.  Smiley
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"Two wrongs don't make a right.  But three rights do make a left." - Rohan Candappa
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