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Baz
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« Reply #630 on: 17:05:07, 22-06-2008 » |
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I think the way I'd look at is to look fiercely at the 'number' of the subject and stick with wherever that leads you, adjusting both the verb and the complement to match. And in that context the (grammatical) number of 'both' is plural whereas the number of both 'either' and 'neither' are singular. Therefore it would go: (i) ( Both) Don and I are closet people. (ii) ( Both) Don and I are not closet people. (iii) Neither Don nor I is a closet person. (iv) Either Don or I is a closet person. I agree with Tommo that there is something a bit odd about (ii) but I think it is because it is unnecessarily convoluted rather than grammatically wrong. You can't put it right by changing the number. You put it 'right' either by saying (iii) instead, or perhaps by taking the grammatical complexity down a notch by saying something like: ( Both) Don and I are non-closet people. I think.  I agree with everything George says here. 'Either/or' and 'neither/nor' constructions both require a singular verb. I'm not 100% sure why 'is' rather than 'am' seemed right to me in my original phrase, but I think the third-person form takes precedence. I'm afraid I can't agree with Richard's idea that the verb agree* with the nearest of two subjects; this would mean you might end up changing the verb if you happened to say 'Neither I nor Don' rather than 'Neither Don nor I'. *That's a subjunctive, specially for Ollie.  This extract from Fowler's Modern English Usage (2nd Ed.) covers some of the points (especially in column 2) though does not really come up with a definitive solution... |
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Turfan Fragment
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« Reply #631 on: 17:08:16, 22-06-2008 » |
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Sounds pretty definitive to me, Baz. Though I think Mr. Fowler will also admit to not being a cupboard person.
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time_is_now
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« Reply #632 on: 17:10:59, 22-06-2008 » |
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Fowler explains the problem well, but I don't agree with his cop-out 'solution' ('The wise man evades these problems ...'). Either both solutions are acceptable, or we prefer one. Abstention is fine for individual users of language, but not for writers of style guides.
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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Antheil
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« Reply #633 on: 17:22:04, 22-06-2008 » |
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My local 'newly-arrived' residents (who, let us be frank, are on the point of outnumbering us) ............. Baz, are you referring to Irish people, black people, or just people with a poor command of English And why be frank about it? What does it mean 'being frank about' neighbours of a different culture or race or level of education? Are you feeling threatened Baz? I'm Scottish, my family are mixed race and some are less educated than you, so, would you mind if we all moved into your street??  John W It could be worse John, Could be Welsh Methodists |
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Reality, sa molesworth 2, is so sordid it makes me shudder
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Baz
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« Reply #634 on: 17:27:58, 22-06-2008 » |
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My local 'newly-arrived' residents (who, let us be frank, are on the point of outnumbering us) ............. Baz, are you referring to Irish people, black people, or just people with a poor command of English And why be frank about it? What does it mean 'being frank about' neighbours of a different culture or race or level of education? Are you feeling threatened Baz? I'm Scottish, my family are mixed race and some are less educated than you, so, would you mind if we all moved into your street?? John W It could be worse John, Could be Welsh Methodists I see that the PC-mafia are beginning to exit from their holes because I dared to make an entirely neutral observation of local demographic fact, but it is still (and always will be)... NO COMMENT |
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time_is_now
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« Reply #635 on: 17:31:29, 22-06-2008 » |
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Baz, with (rapidly diminishing) respect,
The phrase 'let us be frank' is by no stretch of the imagination 'entirely neutral'.
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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John W
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« Reply #636 on: 17:50:27, 22-06-2008 » |
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I see that the PC-mafia are beginning to exit from their holes because I dared to make an entirely neutral observation of local demographic fact, but it is still (and always will be)...
NO COMMENT
Baz, I hate lots of 'PC' that is thrust upon us in this country, and most black people I know hate the PC that is supposedly for their benefit, but I just want to know if you met me, my wife, or my son, or my future son-in-law, or all of us at once walking down your street, and be frank please, would you mind if we stopped you in the street to have a conversation? We might meet at an R3ok meet up one day, and I just want to get this issue out of the way before then this is not an arguement  John W |
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perfect wagnerite
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« Reply #637 on: 19:48:44, 22-06-2008 » |
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... and, speaking as someone who is married to an immigrant who has post-graduate qualifications in both English and music, I suggest that the implication that the "newly-arrived" are degrading the language might not really bear critical examination.
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At every one of these [classical] concerts in England you will find rows of weary people who are there, not because they really like classical music, but because they think they ought to like it. (Shaw, Don Juan in Hell)
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Baz
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« Reply #638 on: 20:20:06, 22-06-2008 » |
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I see that the PC-mafia are beginning to exit from their holes because I dared to make an entirely neutral observation of local demographic fact, but it is still (and always will be)...
NO COMMENT
Baz, I hate lots of 'PC' that is thrust upon us in this country, and most black people I know hate the PC that is supposedly for their benefit, but I just want to know if you met me, my wife, or my son, or my future son-in-law, or all of us at once walking down your street, and be frank please, would you mind if we stopped you in the street to have a conversation? We might meet at an R3ok meet up one day, and I just want to get this issue out of the way before then this is not an arguement John W John (and others) The original comment to which reference is being made is being misconstrued (quite innocently I am sure) by you, t-i-n, Anna, and now PW as having been somehow a 'racist' one. It was not (and I resent the implication that it was) - it was entirely a comment about the way English syntax and phraseology is changing where I live (and I am sure elsewhere). The point about the local demography (which I was 'frankly' [i.e. honestly] making) was only intended to show that to most people with whom I live the argument being rehearsed on this topic was quite irrelevant since it represented a type of syntax that does not exist here amongst the now-majority of people who make up this community (in which I feel very happy). I am very pleased living amongst those around me, and have very good and cordial relationships with them without any of the feelings at all of the kind that now seem to be becoming implied by writers on this thread that I have. My own daughter indeed has a boyfriend who is black, and with whom I am very close. He has always been welcomed here, and frequently stays with us. I shall not be writing further upon this subject. Baz |
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time_is_now
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« Reply #639 on: 20:28:41, 22-06-2008 » |
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Thanks, Baz. That's all that was needed.
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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John W
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« Reply #640 on: 20:55:02, 22-06-2008 » |
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Thanks Baz, and please don't regard me as one of the 'PC-mafia'; they can be an embarrassment and I keep well away from them. When can we move in?  |
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Morticia
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« Reply #641 on: 21:07:41, 22-06-2008 » |
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Thanks for that, Baz. Hopefully that now clarifies any points in your post 618 that may have been misinterpreted.
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Andy D
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« Reply #642 on: 21:19:19, 22-06-2008 » |
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(iii) Neither Don nor I is a closet person.
FWIW I prefer that one. "Neither A nor B is..." is correct, where we use the (mostly indistinguishable in English) nominative forms of A and B. Setting B to be "I" should not alter the verb. |
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perfect wagnerite
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« Reply #643 on: 21:31:58, 22-06-2008 » |
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Thank you for the clarification, Baz, which certainly clears things up in my mind.
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At every one of these [classical] concerts in England you will find rows of weary people who are there, not because they really like classical music, but because they think they ought to like it. (Shaw, Don Juan in Hell)
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #644 on: 22:53:54, 22-06-2008 » |
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... and, speaking as someone who is married to an immigrant who has post-graduate qualifications in both English and music, I suggest that the implication that the "newly-arrived" are degrading the language might not really bear critical examination.
In my experience, at several institutions, often the non-native speakers amongst students write better English than those who have known it from birth. Sad, but often true. |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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