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Author Topic: The sexual and gender constructs thread  (Read 598 times)
increpatio
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« on: 14:05:12, 14-09-2007 »

There was talk of setting up a thread on this topic (or something resembling it), and I came across the following review article:

"The Economics of Desire"
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/11/magazine/11wwln_freak.html?ex=1189915200&en=c40789de6e260db1&ei=5070

Reviewing a paper that I think might be available on-line here:

http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~afranc5/Economics_of_Sexuality.pdf

Anyway; the point is that, after handing a big pile of questionnaires out to lots of people quizzing them about matters sexual, they found that men who had brothers who had AIDS were much less likely to identify as homosexual.  Salient quote time:

"Not a single man in the survey who had a relative with AIDS said he had had sex with a man in the previous five years; not a single man in that group declared himself to be attracted to men or to consider himself homosexual."

However, owing to their initial sample pool, the number of such people was quite small (150) so no real conclusions could be reached.  It was, however, interesting.  I don't know if further research has been carried out on this topic.  A search on scholar.google.com seems to indicate that there has not been much done.

Oh; I'm not in any way a fan of affixing prices to things in the way he does there; but then I'm not an economist and, thankfully, such particular numerics weren't actually relevant to the interesting part of the article at all.

Also, one might ask the question that forms the title of a book by a one Emily Oster, "HIV and Sexual Behaviour Change: Why not Africa?" (I believe it is freely available online, but have no active desire to read it myself at the moment).

Thankfully, AIDS has now been downgraded to a chronic illness instead of a fatal one, if I have my mentally-stored facts correct, so it's simply not as serious.  But the implications are still there, and still interesting; neh?

Also, on the topic of gayness, I remember there being some reported correlation between the a person's self-identified "gayness" and their ratio of maternal aunts to maternal uncles.  Back to google scholar.
« Last Edit: 14:08:51, 14-09-2007 by increpatio » Logged

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Kittybriton
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« Reply #1 on: 14:19:59, 14-09-2007 »

Has anybody looked at the number of maternal aunts with facial hair like Desperate Dan? (naming no names, but...)

We have a photo from the late '40s, and Aunt Marge even looks dikey
« Last Edit: 21:42:40, 14-09-2007 by Kittybriton » Logged

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time_is_now
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« Reply #2 on: 14:23:52, 14-09-2007 »

Also, on the topic of gayness, I remember there being some reported correlation between the a person's self-identified "gayness" and their ratio of maternal aunts to maternal uncles.  Back to google scholar.
Ooh, I've never heard that before. My dad's an only child and my mum's one of four sisters (no brothers). Does that help?!
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #3 on: 14:27:44, 14-09-2007 »

I was wondering if there are any stats on the number of gay men who also have brothers that are gay, without the AIDS question being considered?   Surely this would be the logical "control question"?

There's also another factor which may have adversely affected the stats...  I believe that amongst a proportion of gay men (certain 1-2 have expressed this idea to me) there is a resistance to the idea that homosexuality might be an inherited trait.. largely because this would play into the hands of the Religious Right who would like to classify homosexuality as an "illness", and even develop a "cure".
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increpatio
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« Reply #4 on: 14:47:52, 14-09-2007 »

Also, on the topic of gayness, I remember there being some reported correlation between the a person's self-identified "gayness" and their ratio of maternal aunts to maternal uncles.  Back to google scholar.
Ooh, I've never heard that before. My dad's an only child and my mum's one of four sisters (no brothers). Does that help?!

A supportive anecdote it is, but still an anecdote.  Hmm...I have... one maternal aunt and two maternal uncles.  I keep on thinking that I'm missing someone, but I don't think I am.  Funny that, eh?

Hmm. Okay, so the paper I'm reading (might as well get all this out of the way now, right?), "Maternal Inheritance and Familial Fecundity Factors in Male Homosexuality" (subscription only), seems to think it reasonable to view some classes of homosexuality as heritable, their theory being that there are some genes that, in females, increase their "fecundity" that, when present in males rather decrease it (resulting, in extreme cases, in homosexuality).  This does not explain the ratios however, which needs some other characterization, as, they say, possibly an "arms race" between the sexes.

Other stats mentioned in this being that homosexual men tend to have significantly more older siblings than heterosexual ones, while their parents tend to have fewer siblings compared to the parents of exclusively heterosexual children.  Also homosexual men tend to have more homosexual cousins on their mother's side than their father's.  That's the review part of the paper over.

For their own data-gathering (they questioned 150 people; a very small number, to be sure), they report that the trend of increased female fecundity and having more maternal aunts than uncles holds true for only three of the eight ethnic groups that were covered in the test, where the others showed precisely the opposite results.  However, the number of people in these other groups was really far too small to say anything at all, except that it might be interesting to do some new studies.

RICHARD DAWKINS, in contrast to this view, has the hypothesis that us homosexuals fulfil the role of the "sneaky male".  To paraphrase his reasoning: the difference in size between the sexes is indicative of "alpha male" type communities; in such environments, it's common for other males to feign effeminacy or in general be quite sneaky (in some fish, you get almost a third "gender" where the non-alpha males are significantly smaller than either the females or the alpha-males, and they spend their time tiptoeing about in groups squirting all the ladyfish they come across with their semen).  He says something like "just because they say they're not interested in it, and act that way, that doesn't mean they they won't end up knocking up the occasional lady".   One could note the desire of many gay couples to adopt as being slightly supportive of this view.  This is only a hypothesis of his, of course, but it seems not to be doing the rounds that one would expect, given his general popularity, so I thought I'd share it here as an on-topic aside.  I haven't come across much about it in academica, but I am almost totally ignorant of research into genetics and/or sexuality other than the odd anecdote, so.

Don't know what research has been done about lesbians though (I doubt there has been as much, to be honest, owing to the way things are), but much of the above data about maternal fecundity and the ratios has, I think, been found to be true of male-to-female transsexuals also.

I was wondering if there are any stats on the number of gay men who also have brothers that are gay, without the AIDS question being considered?   Surely this would be the logical "control question"?

Yes; that was the thing: I don't know the numbers off-hand and have had my fill of sexual-theorizing for today, but it should be enough to say that in their data there were gay men with gay brothers, but NOBODY who had a brother with AIDS identified as being gay, and women who had relatives who had AIDS were much more likely to identify as being homosexual also.
« Last Edit: 14:50:11, 14-09-2007 by increpatio » Logged

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John W
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« Reply #5 on: 17:41:29, 14-09-2007 »

So, are there people 'missing' from the original statistic? Maybe the brothers had already died  Roll Eyes
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increpatio
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« Reply #6 on: 17:46:54, 14-09-2007 »

So, are there people 'missing' from the original statistic? Maybe the brothers had already died  Roll Eyes

Hah.  In reality, it's probably because I'm leaving out all the spouses of my maternal uncles.
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increpatio
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« Reply #7 on: 20:38:37, 08-10-2007 »

I understand your frustration there but I feel a line has to be drawn. Same with sexual content. There are a lot of homophilic messages on here which may offend some,
That sentence irks me a bit.  If you characterized them as, say, "sexually explicit", or "not of interest to the general membership" (I consider what I posted on this thread to be legitimately interesting to general members in the same way that any of the stuff I posted on the science thread was (though some of it is maybe a bit more technical in tone than is strictly necessary).  If you think otherwise, I'd like to hear your PoV), I could understand that, but "homophillic"?  I would appreciate if you would clarify what you meant by that term (I'm hoping it was just a slip of the tongue).

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John W
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« Reply #8 on: 20:52:01, 08-10-2007 »

increpatio,

I was trying to say that some people might be embarrassed/offended by the level of homophilic (homosexual-sexually oriented) postings on here, and I went on to say that since there had been no complaints I did not even consider any cautionary words to the posters.

This arose, I think, because I was criticised for taking action even though there were at the time no formal complaints about the Politics... thread.

John W
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Antheil
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« Reply #9 on: 21:11:18, 08-10-2007 »

John W,  This discussion seems to be related to gay men, what about the lesbians here?  Do you have a problem with them (of course, every hetero mans dream is the lesbian scenari)
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Lord Byron
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« Reply #10 on: 21:13:33, 08-10-2007 »

oooo, i could tell you a story here...but i better not Wink
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John W
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« Reply #11 on: 21:20:13, 08-10-2007 »

John W,  This discussion seems to be related to gay men, what about the lesbians here?  Do you have a problem with them (of course, every hetero mans dream is the lesbian scenari)

Gay men I assumed was the subject, nothing against them, but I wouldn't participate physically, now as for.....

Ah Mi Lord has said it  Grin
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increpatio
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« Reply #12 on: 21:20:30, 08-10-2007 »

increpatio,

I was trying to say that some people might be embarrassed/offended by the level of homophilic (homosexual-sexually oriented) postings on here
I didn't know that posts could have a sexual orientation!  Also, I don't think your definition is intuitive (I don't think the word has any proper definition at all), and I think your usage put a few elbows out of joint.

Quote
, and I went on to say that since there had been no complaints I did not even consider any cautionary words to the posters.
Ah okay. Good to clear things up. (I think there would have been some lengthy debate had you actually acted on such complaints if you *had* received any, but...let's thank the lord there weren't any this weekend anyway, neh? Wink  ).

[...] This discussion seems to be related to gay men [...]
This particular one is, indeed.  It's my particular interest.  I am on the look out for other things of course: I did at least *mention* the word "lesbian" in one of my posts.  And this thread *definitely* doesn't aim to exclude talk of any other sexualities/genders; I just started it off with what I was familiar with.
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John W
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« Reply #13 on: 20:47:41, 09-10-2007 »

inky,

I'm amazed that the R3mb board has not locked this thread particularly with the sexuality discussed  in the latter stages, methinks the mods are enjoying it  Shocked

Strange world of.....
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John W
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« Reply #14 on: 23:46:53, 09-10-2007 »

Still on the subject of sex, irrespective of gender or preferences what is your brain?  Smiley

http://www.bbc.co.uk/theoneshow/article/2007/10/cta_sexid.shtml
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