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The Radio 3 Boards > General Chat > The Coffee Bar > Unfortunately Similar Musical Moments
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Author Topic: Unfortunately Similar Musical Moments  (Read 1894 times)
Tony Watson
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« Reply #15 on: 15:47:32, 16-09-2007 »
Quote from: richard barrett on 14:37:45, 16-09-2007
On topic: It's been remarked upon many times that the Israeli national anthem is too similar to the main theme of "Vltava" for this to be a coincidence, but does anyone know why?

According to my book of national anthems, the tune was written by either Nissan Belzer or Samuel Cohen (no one's sure) and it was adopted in 1948. I don't think there's any intended connexion: it's just a common melodic device, going up the minor scale. The hymn tune Aberystwyth by Joseph Parry starts in a similar way and, interestingly, all three pieces are in E minor.

And on the subject of hymns, my favourite opening words are those of number 315 in Songs of Praise:

With wonderful deathless ditties
We build up the world's great cities...
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HtoHe
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« Reply #16 on: 15:50:40, 16-09-2007 »
Quote from: opilec on 15:42:37, 16-09-2007
Quote from: richard barrett on 14:37:45, 16-09-2007
the Israeli national anthem is too similar to the main theme of "Vltava" for this to be a coincidence, but does anyone know why?

It seems that the melody -- adopted (and adapted) as early as 1888 -- is a version of the same Moldavian (!!!) folksong that Smetana used in Vltava.

I suppose, then, the same song was the basis for Brecht/Eisler's 'Das Lied von der Moldau' - which I always assumed was taken from Smetana.
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #17 on: 15:55:19, 16-09-2007 »
Quote from: Reiner Torheit on 06:10:13, 16-09-2007
The Muppets

(which I have to go and rehearse in 45 minutes)

Monica's aria when she's simulating the poltergeist

I read your post this morning and it gave me quite a turn.

Anyway, Milhaud clearly nicked the beginning of his Flute Sonatina from Jesus Christ Superstar. And Mahler went so far as to journey to Australia to appropriate the old ABC News fanfare for two moments in the first movement of his third symphony. The cheek of him.
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roslynmuse
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« Reply #18 on: 16:14:58, 16-09-2007 »
Quote from: Tony Watson on 15:47:32, 16-09-2007
And on the subject of hymns, my favourite opening words are those of number 315 in Songs of Praise:

With wonderful deathless ditties
We build up the world's great cities...

Aha - Elgar The Music Makers, text Arthur O'Shaughnessy.

The line Our souls with high music ringing has been known to cause great hilarity in choral rehearsals...
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #19 on: 16:28:34, 16-09-2007 »
Oh come on, if you can sing fac me tecum plangere you can sing anything...
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #20 on: 16:35:35, 16-09-2007 »
Actually I think I might as well have been rehearsing The Muppets this morning, Ollie Wink  Give the The Great Gonzo any day Smiley  But shouldn't you have been at a rehearsal for an 11am gig this morning? Wink   (Sheesh, 11am on a Sunday?  You must have slavishly devoted audiences... )

My "favourite" hymn is from the USAF Hymnal, and is called How Tedious & Tasteless.  (The words bounce along in jaunty 12/8, HOW/ te-dious-and/taste-less-the/hours/When/Je-sus-I/no-lon-ger/see ).   Another favourite hymn from my short career as a Deputy Crematorium Organist ("pedals optional") is "For Those In Peril On The Sea".  Amusing sabotage can be wreaked on unsuspecting choirs in the penultimate line "Oh, Hear us when we cry to Thee"....   assuming you've started in C-maj (as in Hymns Ancient & Modern) you leave the tune-note of "cry" as F (instead of shunting up to the written F#), and provide a harmonic underlay of C7/F, Db7/Gb/Gb7, Cb/Fb/Cb/Gb/Cb.  They know something has happened, but can't quite work out what.  Wink  Provided you are handy at transposition you can end up in around Ab by the last verse Smiley
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richard barrett
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« Reply #21 on: 16:43:13, 16-09-2007 »
Quote from: opilec on 16:29:30, 16-09-2007
Smetana's Vltava/Die Moldau was sufficiently widely known in the late nineteenth century that the tune's patriotic use there may have influenced its choice. It's surely more than just "going up the minor scale": the sequential continuation is almost identical too.
I agree. It's inconceivable, I think, that the composer of the anthem wasn't basing it either on Vltava or on the song Smetana took as his own basis, but the "why" remains unanswered...
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #22 on: 17:13:55, 16-09-2007 »
Quote from: Reiner Torheit on 16:35:35, 16-09-2007
But shouldn't you have been at a rehearsal for an 11am gig this morning? Wink  (Sheesh, 11am on a Sunday?  You must have slavishly devoted audiences... )

It was indeed before heading out the door that I read it...

Quote from: Reiner Torheit on 16:35:35, 16-09-2007
you leave the tune-note of "cry" as F (instead of shunting up to the written F#), and provide a harmonic underlay of C7/F, Db7/Gb/Gb7, Cb/Fb/Cb/Gb/Cb.  They know something has happened, but can't quite work out what.  Wink  Provided you are handy at transposition you can end up in around Ab by the last verse Smiley

I bet that's the kind of thing Bach used to get up to... Wink
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Jonathan
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Still Lisztening...


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« Reply #23 on: 17:48:05, 16-09-2007 »
I think I've said this before but the second theme in the finale of Tchaikovsky's 4th Symphony sounds to me like "Ding, dong the witch is dead" from the "Wizard of Oz"
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Best regards,
Jonathan
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MT Wessel
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« Reply #24 on: 17:50:11, 16-09-2007 »
Quote from: oliver sudden on 16:28:34, 16-09-2007
Oh come on, if you can sing fac me tecum plangere you can sing anything...
Oi! Sudden! Red card there My Son. There's more than enough that in the meedja these days. In fact I might start a new thread on it already. I'll tell you this, I'm sick to the back teeth of .....(continued on page 94) Sad
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lignum crucis arbour scientiae
harmonyharmony
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« Reply #25 on: 18:02:33, 16-09-2007 »
Quote from: oliver sudden on 17:13:55, 16-09-2007
I bet that's the kind of thing Bach used to get up to... Wink
Didn't he get fired for that? Oh, and messing around with a lady in the organ loft during the service.
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Daniel
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« Reply #26 on: 18:15:37, 16-09-2007 »
Quote from: harmonyharmony on 18:02:33, 16-09-2007
Quote from: oliver sudden on 17:13:55, 16-09-2007
I bet that's the kind of thing Bach used to get up to... Wink
Didn't he get fired for that?

Sounds like it bachfired on him then  Sad
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increpatio
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« Reply #27 on: 18:22:01, 16-09-2007 »
Quote from: Ian Pace on 11:15:35, 16-09-2007
I've probably mentioned this one before, also, but the last movement of Brandenburg 5 is very close to 'Yes, we have no bananas'. Also the tarantella of Busoni's Piano Concerto keeps wanting to turn into 'Nelly the Elephant'.

Not fully seeing it, but maybe a little bit in terms of its temperament.  Probably best that I avoid this thread; don't want to RUIN any more of what I do currently appreciate.
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Daniel
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« Reply #28 on: 18:32:19, 16-09-2007 »
'Groovy Kind of Love' is given its first airing in the Rondo from Clementi's sonatina op.36 no.5
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roslynmuse
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« Reply #29 on: 18:38:17, 16-09-2007 »
Quote from: Daniel on 18:32:19, 16-09-2007
'Groovy Kind of Love' is given its first airing in the Rondo from Clementi's sonatina op.36 no.5

Oh no - you've RUINED that masterpiece for me forever...

 Cheesy
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