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MabelJane
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« on: 23:40:06, 13-10-2007 » |
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Can you suggest pieces of music where in your opinion the composer's simply got it wrong? A little part of a work which overall is absolutely wonderful but there's just that one chord that really jars or those few notes which aren't quite right... I'm prompted to ask this as I've been listening to a CD of Chopin's Piano Concerto no 2 and I wince at the very final sounding cadence onto a major chord fairly near the end (sorry I've no score to refer to). Firstly it's too bright* - I want it to be a minor chord, and secondly, it sounds like the very end of the concerto - which it isn't. I've often cringed at a piece of music predominantly in a minor key ending abruptly on a major chord - what do others feel about this? I can't think of an example right now but it does bother me!  *A thought - perhaps it's the fault of the recording? It's a freebie CD (from the Telegraph!) - pianist Derek Han with Nicholas Cleobury conducting the Royal Phil. |
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Merely corroborative detail, intended to give artistic verisimilitude to an otherwise bald and unconvincing narrative.
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #1 on: 00:08:20, 14-10-2007 » |
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I have this one in mind because I have just worked on the piece... Menotti revised his opera THE MEDIUM later in life, cutting two big scenes from the middle of the work, and one from the beginning. Unfortunately the one at the beginning leaves a horrible stylistic crunch between the overture and the first scene (there is no break, they run together) and I wish it wasn't like that. However, he became adamant and even stroppy about the revision he'd made, ordering his publishers to destroy all copies of the previous versions - so we can't go back to using them.
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
- Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
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gradus
Posts: 58
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« Reply #2 on: 11:24:51, 14-10-2007 » |
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I know what you mean and for me it seems to happen when the emotional mood is broken by the turn taken. An example is the ending of The sun goeth down from The Kingdom, a glorious piece of music - Elgar's finest vocal writing? - but I always feel the mood is broken by Elgar's oddly pedantic even unsympathetic ending. I wish he could have found another way.
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Martin
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« Reply #3 on: 14:09:24, 14-10-2007 » |
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I have never found the end of Sibelius 5 to be satisfactory. The chords would be OK if the previous material had lead up to them in a more developed way, but as long as I hear that piece those chords seem to be an idea out of nowhere. I sure hope that when Sibelius Symphony No. 5.0.1 version comes out, that fault will have been remedied. (big chuckle  ) |
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martle
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« Reply #4 on: 15:45:59, 14-10-2007 » |
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Funny, that, Martin, because I think those last chords in Sib 5 (the symph, not the prog) are almost the most extraordinarily powerful idea in a symphony that's already been jam-packed with powerful ideas! And the build-up to them is what makes them work, for me: he needs that amount of time, and the silences in between them, to resolve the dissonances that precede them and to shoulder the 'weight' of the huge cadence that they are.
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Green. Always green.
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #5 on: 15:52:08, 14-10-2007 » |
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Since there's an original version, surely you're awaiting 5.1.1, Martin. (Though if we're talking about the programme, then 5.1 can't come soon enough for me: Sib 5 is little more than beta version so far as I'm concerned.)
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pim_derks
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« Reply #6 on: 16:02:38, 14-10-2007 » |
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I like the ending of Sibelius's Fifth! I think it's surprising. It reminds me a bit of the opening of Nielsen's Third: my favourite symphony by the Danish master.
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"People hate anything well made. It gives them a guilty conscience." John Betjeman
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MabelJane
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« Reply #7 on: 16:10:26, 14-10-2007 » |
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I have never found the end of Sibelius 5 to be satisfactory.
Funny, that, Martin, because I think those last chords in Sib 5 (the symph, not the prog) are almost the most extraordinarily powerful idea in a symphony that's already been jam-packed with powerful ideas! And the build-up to them is what makes them work, for me: he needs that amount of time, and the silences in between them, to resolve the dissonances that precede them and to shoulder the 'weight' of the huge cadence that they are.
I like the ending of Sibelius's Fifth! I think it's surprising. It reminds me a bit of the opening of Nielsen's Third: my favourite symphony by the Danish master.
Which is why I wrote in your opinion! Personally I like those striking chords at the end but I don't know that symphony very well - perhaps I would change my mind and find them too abrupt if I listened to the whole symphony more carefully. Having listened to that offending Chopin again (funny, no one's leaped to its defence!) I realise it's the ascending scale to the tonic which is so horrible - to my ears! |
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Merely corroborative detail, intended to give artistic verisimilitude to an otherwise bald and unconvincing narrative.
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roslynmuse
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« Reply #8 on: 16:23:03, 14-10-2007 » |
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MJ - do you mean the one just before the horn calls?
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MabelJane
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« Reply #9 on: 16:27:26, 14-10-2007 » |
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MJ - do you mean the one just before the horn calls?
I'll have to listen to it again! Perhaps it would be easier to tell you how many minutes into that movement it comes. Back later....  |
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Merely corroborative detail, intended to give artistic verisimilitude to an otherwise bald and unconvincing narrative.
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MabelJane
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« Reply #10 on: 16:34:01, 14-10-2007 » |
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MJ - do you mean the one just before the horn calls?
YES!!! That da da da DAH is so crude! Maybe if someone who likes that moment could explain why, I could learn to love it! It's at about 7 minutes into the last movement. |
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Merely corroborative detail, intended to give artistic verisimilitude to an otherwise bald and unconvincing narrative.
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Tony Watson
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« Reply #11 on: 16:50:44, 14-10-2007 » |
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Wasn't Chopin unsure about a chord in his Prelude no. 20 - the C minor one? It's the last chord in bar 3. It's now C minor but for a while it was C major until Chopin changed it after hearing a pupil play it.
In a more positive way, I love the way the development starts in Mozart's Jupiter symphony. After four notes, we've gone from C major to E flat major and the last tune we heard is then repeated. I sometimes think a lesser composer would have started with the first theme but in the minor.
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roslynmuse
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« Reply #12 on: 16:53:46, 14-10-2007 » |
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MJ - I think the problem with that chord sounding crude is the orchestration not the chord itself (although it is perhaps a bit blatant...) - if it was a minor chord, the horn call would sound REALLY weird!
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offbeat
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« Reply #13 on: 20:23:13, 14-10-2007 » |
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Not sure of the history of Prokofiev seventh symphony but notice there are two alternate endings one with a mad little dance and the other finishing quietly - for what its worth i prefer the quiet finish as it reflects the nostalgic and reflective nature of this work which i am very fond of
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #14 on: 22:43:41, 14-10-2007 » |
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Lots of "alternative endings" in opera, of course... ... although it's fashionable to "restore the original ones" these days, one "improved ending" which is definitely worth keeping is Tchaikovsky's MAZEPPA. The original ending wasn't greatly liked - it had the tyrannical Mazeppa making his exit with the booty amid the sounds of battle. Tchaikovsky revised the ending by switching the two final scenes around, now ending with the "lullaby"... a shell-shocked girl is out of mind on the battlefield, and doesn't recognise her childhood sweetheart dying of gunshot wounds at her feet. For anyone who still rates Tchaikovsky as a "chocolate-box" composer, this bittersweet stuff is what he's really about. I posted the link to this clip of the scene last week - but you can't have too much of a good thing The ambient sound on the clip is a bit low, you might want to turn it up a bit http://youtube.com/watch?v=IxTfQIIPusk |
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
- Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
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