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Morticia
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« Reply #15 on: 23:31:11, 31-01-2008 » |
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But at least you`re indicating that you would have an opinion, John, even if you think it may make no sense to Chafers or you might find it difficult to explain. I think young Madam has exhausted her use of "sickening" and "creepy". I would want her to explain what informs her use of those words. On the other hand, I suppose one could be generous and say that at least she`s feeling something as opposed to sitting there yawning. Even so, it`s too easy to criticise something until you have tried it yourself. As she will find out soon enough....
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #16 on: 23:39:01, 31-01-2008 » |
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Well, looking at the nine pieces listed I've heard maybe only three before, or have an idea what three would sound like, but the list scares the hell out of me and listening to several of them, never mind writing a journal for CD, would be very difficult, my comments/opinion would probably make no sense to CD, and I would be unable to explain. I do sympathise with her.  Well, if you were actually studying music at university, wouldn't you think it fair that you would be asked to elaborate upon such things? A student of chemistry who examined various compounds and just said 'They're all a bit green and gloopy' wouldn't be expected to gain that high a mark as a result, I would have thought? |
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« Last Edit: 23:41:01, 31-01-2008 by Ian Pace »
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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C Dish
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« Reply #17 on: 00:36:45, 01-02-2008 » |
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the list scares the hell out of me and listening to several of them, never mind writing a journal for CD, would be very difficult...
"scares the hell out of you" -- do you mean this literally? How can music be that scary? And it's not like they're listening to all this stuff in one sitting. They listen at their own pace. Also, I try to make clear that the journal entries are not a search for right or wrong answers, but an investigation of their own listening habits. It most certainly is not for my benefit. If she finds it all just creepy, that doesn't ruin my life, I'd just like to be helpful and wonder what is the best approach. I'm also wondering whether even posting this grump in the first place was worth the effort. |
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inert fig here
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richard barrett
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« Reply #18 on: 00:58:04, 01-02-2008 » |
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I think it's a rather interesting grump actually. I don't see that John's comments have any relevance at all though, for reasons that Ian has already made clear.
Some years ago, when I knew even less about teaching than I do now, I was confronted with a similar kind of problem and asked a first-year undergraduate class in electronic music to bring in recordings of the music they were most interested in, which was mostly "IDM"-type work by Autechre, Aphex Twin and so on, and we "analysed" these somewhat in the same way that we might analyse a Stockhausen piece. Somehow this was a turning point in the way the members of the class (or at least enough of them) related to the ideas and musics I was otherwise discussing with them, in realising that it wasn't just the "creepy" stuff which could be usefully talked about in those terms.
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John W
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« Reply #19 on: 01:06:38, 01-02-2008 » |
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Scary from being expected to identify something musical in the pieces or interpret some meaning or purpose to the piecesic. I'm not an art student but I could look at a Rembrandt, a Turner or a Monet and write something maybe slsightly meaningful about a painting whereas I would not be able to do the same about a Mondrian or a Pollock other than say I can't understand what makes straight lines and random splashes art.
Oh come on Richard, just because I find some 'music' incomprehensible you consider my opinion is irrelevant?
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richard barrett
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« Reply #20 on: 01:15:04, 01-02-2008 » |
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Oh come on Richard, just because I find some 'music' incomprehensible you consider my opinion is irrelevant?
No, that's not the reason at all, it's because you aren't a student of composition and presumably never have been, ie. someone who is devoting several years of their life to systematically expanding their knowledge and abilities in that area, and from whom, as Ian says, one would expect somewhat more curiosity and insight than to describe the music simply as "creepy". Surely you can see that. |
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John W
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« Reply #21 on: 01:24:29, 01-02-2008 » |
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Yeah, fair enough, if those students are doing a music course they ought to be able to express themselves better, point taken.
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C Dish
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« Reply #22 on: 03:14:53, 01-02-2008 » |
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Scary from being expected to identify something musical in the pieces or interpret some meaning or purpose to the piecesic. I'm not an art student but I could look at a Rembrandt, a Turner or a Monet and write something maybe slsightly meaningful about a painting whereas I would not be able to do the same about a Mondrian or a Pollock other than say I can't understand what makes straight lines and random splashes art.
That's still not scary but rather simply mystifying, I think -- scary only if I'm a schoolmaster with the switch at the ready waiting for a student to say "I don't know". Besides, I'm not offering them the musical equivalent of Pollock and Mondrian, at least not yet. More like the equivalent of Klee and Kandinsky and Klimt. They are required to use whatever vocabulary they can muster to say something analytical about what they are hearing. This does not invalidate or judge the emotional reaction, just leads to a more productive learning experience. Here's another thought: perhaps if a student considers the music 'creepy' I can bring in music that's actually meant to be creepy (Herrmann?) and show how that music appropriates tropes from/ makes cliches out of the music on the listening list. This is certainly one way to increase the student's awareness of what they themselves are bringing into the equation from their culture and upbringing. |
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inert fig here
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trained-pianist
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« Reply #23 on: 08:23:21, 01-02-2008 » |
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I think it is a good idea to let them listen to really scary music.
The most important thing is not to get irritated or vexed at students. If you can be magnanimus, friendly and generally nice students will give it another chance. Connecting music to poetry helps a lot. Sometimes they can be irritated with something else and carry this attitude into the class room.
A friend was giving composition classes and could not hold on many students (most) because most of them wanted to learn how to write songs. That particular class was cancelled.
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Tony Watson
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« Reply #24 on: 10:27:45, 01-02-2008 » |
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I'm curious to know how such students get through the selection process. Aren't they interviewed to try and find out how genuine their interest in music is and how well they can talk about it?
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #25 on: 11:20:04, 01-02-2008 » |
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Well, nowadays one can nowadays study music in many universities in the English-speaking world without having a classical background or necessary interest in that area of music; popular and other musics are deemed equally worthy of study (and I personally think that's right, though it's taken me a while to come round to that point of view). But often students then still have to learn at least something about classical music during their degree (I don't think the reverse happens so much - those with a classical background having to learn about popular and other musics), and that's often where the problems that t-p mentions occur. There are also more than a few academics who are firmly of the opinion that 'modernist' music is essentially of little value compared to popular music, and not worthy of in-depth analysis or discussion (or at least certainly do not do the latter in their own writings on the subject). Reconciling this viewpoint, if students receive it from some lecturers, with trying to make some of them examine such music in detail (even if they continue to reject it), is not easy, and can cause many problems within university departments.
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« Last Edit: 11:22:07, 01-02-2008 by Ian Pace »
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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time_is_now
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« Reply #26 on: 12:49:20, 01-02-2008 » |
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I've been slightly hesitant to post in response to this because I was waiting for it to be moved to its own thread, but since I seem to be the only person who thinks it's on the wrong thread I'll comment here.
I do think it's an interesting grump by the way, if grump it is; I just think it could do with its own unique composition-teaching thread.
Re what to do, it would be helpful to know what music this student likes, as well as what sort of music she imagined she would be asked to listen to/study when she undertook this course. Do you know, CD? Or is she secretive about this too?
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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Morticia
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« Reply #27 on: 13:02:07, 01-02-2008 » |
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tinners, I think you have a point. The current discussion probably deserves its own thread. I`ll mention it to Ollie and Ron. Unless they are currently reading this? Chaps?
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #28 on: 13:14:28, 01-02-2008 » |
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Done!
Mort and tinners, your wish is my command....
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stuart macrae
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« Reply #29 on: 13:35:28, 01-02-2008 » |
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Sounds to me like you're being too nice to her. There's no reason why the word 'creepy' can't be applied descriptively to some music, but for her to use the same words for every piece you play her, regardless of the variety of styles, suggests a total lack of engagement. I'd either disregard completely her use of this word, paying attention only to more critical judgements she might be prompted to (which may of course be none - in which case she can be deemed not to have offered an opinion), or mark her down for not having done the listening!
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