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Author Topic: Free Thinking  (Read 417 times)
Daniel
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« Reply #15 on: 22:28:03, 05-08-2008 »

The other day I was listening to Pierre-Laurent Aimard play Musica ricercata by Ligeti. Some of these pieces seem to me to resonate rather strongly with the feeling of being trapped by one's own needs, one's own pathologies, and as such present a somewhat etiolated feeling of free will.
 
We obviously do enjoy a degree of free will, I for example can suddenly type 'willie', and then go into the kitchen and spread Marmite on my feet if I want to, but underneath such superficial actions it is rather inescapably obvious that I am tied to such fundamental things as hunger, thirst, fatigue and so on that I have no control over at a basic level. And emotions - we don't really have a lot of control over those do we, I mean they on the whole run us, not us them. Needs run us. Proper philosophers have written far more elegantly on these matters I know, but the provocation of the Ligeti and this thread means you get this shallow precis, as it was what cropped up as I my mind staggered around, thinking freely. (And actually would I have had these feelings at all without having seen Eyes Wide Shut, where some of this music accompanies the films horrible denouement? Are these really my thoughts or am I just under the impression that they are? Is the power of advertising (or a form of it, propaganda?) just leading me to think the thoughts that the film is telling me to think?)

As I was listening to the Ligeti a number of things crossed my mind. They were - seagulls set against a clear blue sky -  racing across cobbled streets in Paris in a rusty but willing 2CV on a frosty day - emotional sickness brought about by being forced to cope with a meretricious and dehumanised environment - and Bartok, and sth else I can't quite define. And my next thought (oh no!) that seemed to be vaguely connected, was that I am quite likely to experience visual imagery when listening to such music, but I'd say that I don't often get visual associations when listening to Renaissance vocal music. It doesn't seem to stimulate them for me. The music doesn't seem to invite them in the same way, and my thought (a free one!) was that this music might for some reason be the least metaphorical, the purest (musically speaking), because the personality of the composer is least in evidence, there seems to be, relatively speaking, a lack of ego in it. And that the reason why such music feels sometimes to be purifying or clarifying, might come from the example of the music's loss of ego - perhaps one is freed even from the tyranny of identity to feel more 'spiritual' by the loss of identity that an ignored ego might allow you.

Ramble over. Actually, I'm not sure I even know what free thinking means now I think of it.
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trained-pianist
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« Reply #16 on: 08:45:03, 06-08-2008 »

At this time I have similar thoughts with you, Daniel.

I don't think we are free at all. Even my thoughts depend on my situation. I can not change that situation. My life seems to be a chain of random events. Yes, there were my choices too, but many of these choices were forced by circumstances. Our needs take so much time that it is strange we have time to think about something beside these needs.
 
What is here in this world mine? I am influenced by what I read, what I hear, what my particular situation is etc. On the other side I agree with Beethoven in one of his last quartets when he asks: Must it be? And the answer is: Yes, it must.

Music of the Renascence era up to Bach sounds to me like people accepted their lot better, were less as arrogant than people of later times. I can see God All Mighty and their recognition of the power beyond us in their music.
I love to hear Ligeti's music you are talking about. I don't know much of his music. The best composers can at times connect us with the power beyond and with ourselves (or the other hidden part of us).
Thanks for your post. It is good to know that people have similar feelings.
One has to treasure music that gives at least a glimpse of our real situation with regard to free will and free thinking. On the other hand we are free if we can overcome our emotions, our ego, and our self importance.

Also as all practicing musicians know if one tries very hard to impose their own rational mind on their playing it becomes contrive, unnutural, too rigid, even perhaps agressive. One plays the best if one can not be conscious of oneself.
« Last Edit: 09:00:36, 06-08-2008 by trained-pianist » Logged
A
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« Reply #17 on: 08:56:32, 06-08-2008 »

.

I don't think we are free at all. Even my thoughts depend on my situation. I can not change that situation. My life seems to be a chain of random events. Yes, there were my choices too, but many of these choices were forced by circumstances. Our needs take so much time that it is strange we have time to think about something beside these needs.
 
What is here in this world mine? I am influenced by what I read, what I hear, what my particular situation is etc.


It is also worth considering though that you don't have to read a certain book, or even listen to what is around you or to music. You can think what you wish, go where you wish, and read and listen to what you wish.
Surely this is freedom?

A
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Well, there you are.
trained-pianist
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« Reply #18 on: 09:02:29, 06-08-2008 »

Yes, it is right. We have freedom. Buy why do I want to read this book at this time? Also my perception of the same material changes with my situation, my age, etc.
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increpatio
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« Reply #19 on: 12:40:54, 06-08-2008 »

The particular term 'free thinking' seems to be getting slightly mired in discussion of 'free will'.
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trained-pianist
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Posts: 5455



« Reply #20 on: 13:23:14, 06-08-2008 »



How to think logically and not emotionally? One can forget what one is thinking about while thinking.
Should I or should I not try again? May be too much free thinking is bad. Am I chasing my tail?
May be they did not noticed. I am sure they did not.
I am sure they don't notice my mistakes too. Or should I rUn to the bushes before it is too late?

How can I get away from culture that influences my thinking?


 
« Last Edit: 13:46:19, 06-08-2008 by trained-pianist » Logged
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