time_is_now
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« on: 22:34:40, 23-02-2007 » |
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... and if there are, could any of them help me with something that's been bugging me? Is there a word (along the lines of 'states' to describe what ice and water both are) that would describe what the following all are: rivers rain snow They're all [----: whats] of the same substance? 'Iso-' somethings, maybe?? There'll be a prize for anyone who can help - and yes, it is a musical prize, and is also connected to the subject of my question! t_i_n
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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richard barrett
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« Reply #1 on: 22:36:48, 23-02-2007 » |
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I think "phases" is what you're looking for.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #2 on: 22:39:06, 23-02-2007 » |
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... unless I'm getting the question wrong. See "phase (matter)" in Wikipedia.
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thompson1780
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« Reply #3 on: 22:44:53, 23-02-2007 » |
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phases gets my vote too.
Isotopes applies to elements - different numbers of neutrons in the nucleus, but teh same no. of protons Isomers applies to molecules - same formula, but different structure (although I don't think they cover left- and right-handedness e.g. a long hydrocarbon chain with distinct ends may have a side shoot on the left or right, and is thus left- or right-handed) Isobars is in weather ISAs are something completely different.
Tommo
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Made by Thompson & son, at the Violin & c. the West end of St. Paul's Churchyard, LONDON
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John W
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« Reply #4 on: 22:49:46, 23-02-2007 » |
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rivers rain snow
They're all [----: whats] of the same substance?
OK, I'm both chemist and physicist. I think you are correct with the word 'state'. Rivers and rain are both water in the liquid state. Snow is water in the solid state as is ice. The one that is missing is steam, which is water in the gaseous state. John W
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time_is_now
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« Reply #5 on: 23:04:00, 23-02-2007 » |
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Thanks to all of you, I didn't expect any answers quite so quickly! Thanks for 'phases', Richard - not a term I was familiar with - unfortunately I don't think it quite works, since (according to Wikipedia) "two states [of a system] are in the same phase if they can be transformed into one another without any abrupt changes", which if I understand correctly would leave rivers and rain in the same phase. You're quite right that all those things I mentioned could be looked at in terms of phases, but I somehow need a term 'X' where each of the things in my list is a different X, if you see what I mean. (John, this is also why 'states' isn't sufficient - I need a term that registers the difference between rivers and rain, or between crystals of snow and a block of ice, as well as what they have in common (i.e. all being different X's of the same substance ...). I did hope that there was something a bit like isomers, but it's a physical rather than a chemical distinction I'm looking for, I suppose, isn't it. Thanks for all your help though!!
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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John W
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« Reply #6 on: 23:05:12, 23-02-2007 » |
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Right, no response to my scientific answer. Artistically I would describe rivers, rain etc as forms of water. The natural environment has created the form. The slope and gravity have transformed the liquid water into the river form; gravity and change in air pressure have created the raindrop form; gravity and low temperature have created the snowflake form. John W
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time_is_now
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« Reply #7 on: 23:14:46, 23-02-2007 » |
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Yep, I think I may have to stick with 'form'. It's only for an extended metaphor, really - I'm not going to be hauled up before a committee of scientists! - but I often find that discovering a nice specific term can help focus the metaphor. I'd already come up with 'form', and also 'manifestation' ... Thanks, John. I think you've made me feel better about 'form', by giving such a carefully phrased explanation of how the different forms I'd mentioned come about. Anyway, if anyone suddenly wakes up in the middle of the night (it's what I've been hoping would happen to me all week) with a very precise scientific term then do let me know Cheers t_i_n
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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John W
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« Reply #8 on: 23:29:38, 23-02-2007 » |
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Form it is then, now about this CD of Handel's 'Water Music'
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calum da jazbo
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« Reply #9 on: 23:33:49, 23-02-2007 » |
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http://www.biochemj.org/bj/299/0171/2990171.pdfthis looks impenetrable but it came up when i googled 'expression of form' since i figured that rain and river were two expressions of the state form of water dk if this helps; a really interesting and difficult question innit! i also think this is worth looking at but not quite what you want but 'fugacity' is such a delightful word! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fugacity
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« Last Edit: 23:37:26, 23-02-2007 by calum da jazbo »
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It's just a matter of time before we're late.
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John W
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« Reply #10 on: 23:39:57, 23-02-2007 » |
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Another substance that exists in different forms, because of the environment it has experienced, is carbon. These are all forms of carbon:
coal graphite diamond completely charred wood
They are all in the solid state, but are different forms because of degradation, temperature, pressure etc.
John W
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time_is_now
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« Reply #11 on: 00:27:07, 24-02-2007 » |
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Ah, well the different forms of carbon do have a name: they're allotropes. But (someone correct me if I'm wrong, please) they're chemically different, because they have different types of bond, whereas water (liquid) and ice/snow are only physically different (states of matter). And as for rivers and rain ... well, yes, I think your explanation of how those different manifestations come about works better than any single word we've come up with so far. I do like 'fugacity', though, calum - and it's quite a musical term too!
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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John W
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« Reply #12 on: 00:38:59, 24-02-2007 » |
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Ah allotropes, you are right; I didn't refer to my textbooks (on a shelf in the garage!). I think sulphur has a couple too. And yes, I suppose the bonding in water and ice is the same, hygrogen bonding. Is someone writing a Water Symphony? John W
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George Garnett
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« Reply #13 on: 01:43:37, 24-02-2007 » |
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I think 'allotrope' is only used in the case of elements, isn't it? So you can have (as people have said) allotropes of carbon and sulphur (atoms of the same element combined in different spatial structures: diamond, graphite and 'buckyballs' comes to mind from somewhere or other in the distant past, as in 'buckminsterfullerenes' in the case of carbon) but you couldn't have different allotropes in the case of molecules such as water. And allotropes are allotropes only within the same physical state (allotropes of solid carbon, for example). They are the same chemical substance but have different physical properties because of the different way that the atomic bonds line themselves up spatially. They are the same bonds, just configured differently. It's the fact that, in the case of a few elements such as carbon and sulphur, they can do this within the same physical state that makes them allotropes. I suppose there comes a point when what you call these things comes down as much to linguistic choice as much as to chemistry or physics. I think in terms of their physics and chemistry the difference between liquid water as in a river and liquid water as in a raindrop is probably as mundane as different 'shape' . I am very taken with 'fugacity' though. Lovely word. I think I can hear a stampede of composers in the distance all jostling to be first with 'Fugacity IV: fughetta per quatro fagotti'.
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« Last Edit: 02:26:29, 24-02-2007 by George Garnett »
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calum da jazbo
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« Reply #14 on: 13:06:52, 24-02-2007 » |
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apart from its lovely sound it has struck me as a dimension of personality, since it is an interesting way of describing a most likely preference. e.g if work is one phase, play another, intoxication, sex yet others, one could certainly play around with the individual's fugacity for a phase of activity - even to the more abstract notion of starting, doing and finishing activities. Being a slow starter myself, good at doing and hating finishing! An immersion fugacity!
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It's just a matter of time before we're late.
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