I'm not sure where "camp" stops and "kitsch" begins?

I think Jonathan Dove's FLIGHT hovers on the edge of being camp.

Is camp a fad?
Is camp exaggeration of natural and artificial?

I suppose there is a subsection of "late capitalism" who would like to "culture" as a gutless, castrated end-of-the-pier show, whose only subversive "message" might be the naughtiest smidgeon of a hint of bisexuality (provided it's clear that the character involved is shunned by all around them, of course - for safety's sake).

It's true that there is a kind of "camp" that emerges unintentionally - particularly in amateur dramatic performances of serious works. One of the funniest shows I've ever seen was an amateur production of "Journey's End" (including a "gas" effect that enveloped the entire auditorium, forcing them to declare an impromptu intermission to clear the place).  There are also some genres which probably shouldn't be camp, but slip into it by accident - Noel Coward, Oscar Wilde etc.  And sometimes it's just what mood you're in when you see it?

For example - is this outrageous camp... or wrist-slittingly tragic?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=hubyFqSUaGA

But returning to the world of music...  I wonder how one would define "camp" in terms of "abstract" music?

In the few productions of Le Nozze di Figaro I've seen, Basilio always seems to be a camp figure but is it in the music? I think there are camp qualities in Der Rosenkavalier that are in the music, not just because it's sometimes played with powdered wigs.

That Wiki definition seems a partial but not necessarily comprehensive one. I'd be interested to know what you think, t-p, of the Sontag article I linked to in the first post of this thread.

1. What does it mean to you to say that a work of music is 'camp'? Furthermore, what does the term in general connotate to you?
2. Which works of music would fit that description (especially new music)?
3. Do you see the concept as particularly linked to a supposed homosexual identity and aesthetic?
4. Do you think it is a positive epithet for music?
5. Do you see it as at cross-purposes with other musical tendencies?
6. Do you see a particular political meaning to camp? In particular, how do you view the relationship between camp and commercialism/consumerism?

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You won't want my opinion, Ian, but for what it's worth and because I'm sitting up awaiting an email or two with nothing much else that I feel like doing, I'll give it!

1. It has never occurred to me to say that a piece of music is "camp". I have never heard anyone else say that, either, till you mentioned it here.

2. I know of no music that would fit the description, as I understand it.

3. I see the concept as being linked in particular to an affected and somewhat effeminate mode of male behaviour and acting. Whether this is always related to homosexuality or not I wouldn't presume to say. I am sure that some homosexual males are camp; I am not sure that all camp males are homosexual.

4. As the term has connatations (for me at least) of artificiality and affectation and as these attributes are not (for me at least) particularly positive, I would suggest that if it were applied to music then it would not be positive.

5. See answer 1. Also, I don't view music as having "tendencies". I'm very simple: I view it as either pleasant to hear or unpleasant to hear.

6. I do not see a political meaning in the term.

I hope this helps!

bws S-S!

PS thank you for that picture of the great Mrs Thatcher you posted on another thread. Despite her faults (and we surely all have those) we must never forget her role in saving Britain from the rabid left in the later years of the 20th century, must we?  Oh, and in protecting the democratic rights of those living in the Falkland Islands, too. I'm sure all those on the left are at least in favour of protecting peoples' democratic rights, aren't you?

PPS I wonder if you'd be interested, as a political activist, in joining one of the various organisations to help the opposition party in Zimbabwe: you may know that Dictator Mugabe has just had his opposition leader tortured and beated up. The country is on its knees and people are frightened and starving. If you can't actually go there to demonstrate, just google and donate - that would be a start. Many thanks, brother.

The second quotation is bollocks but is Wilde simply mocking those who hold such views? When Shakespeare says something you cannot be sure he believed it himself but with Wilde you cannot be so certain. As for the first one, I think there's something in it.

Thinking more about "camp" music, I would say that much pop music from the sixties onwards falls into that category, largely because it was produced for teenage girls to buy.

(I'll put on my tin hat, duck for cover, get me coat, etc.)