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Author Topic: Notes on musical camp  (Read 4329 times)
MrYorick
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« Reply #90 on: 22:02:50, 20-03-2007 »

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Certainly that's possible, but it would constitute a rather supercilious verdict on the great many people in the world who are not involved in artistic production, thus declaring their existences 'pointless and transient'.

Indeed, I guess that would be the case.  But with the nuance that the artist would not contemptuously declare the existence of every non-artist as pointless, but simply make the observation that those who are not creating art would be more susceptible to experience their own existence as pointless.

Of course, one would have to check the text to see what Wilde originally intended.

Kind regards,
MrY
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #91 on: 10:52:40, 21-03-2007 »

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But, however, in an era of mass-produced culture, many of those other things (such as playing through a Mozart sonata rather than putting on a CD) become less and less prevalent

I can't agree with that.  On the contrary, the availability of technology currently means that for the outlay of one month's average salary, one can buy a movie-camera on which you could - with some care and planning, and no small amount of ingenuity - shoot a major motion-picture success like The Blair Witch Project.  You can do all the edit-suite functions on a laptop.  You won't put Hollywood out of business, but you can break into the business, at least. 

For as little as $26, you can buy a webcam and begin making your own youtube clips. With some software and a $50-buck scanner you can start to produce animated films.

Sure, and at best that's great. I'm entirely convinced, having watched quite a bit of Youtube material, that quite a bit of it necessarily constitutes a better expenditure of one's time than, say, reading a book Wink

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It was, in fact the windmills of C19th mass-production against Wilde was tilting, setting down his credo of individuality and the importance of art, against a sea of mediocrity and dross.

As did a great many artists of that period (and since). But in the process of doing so, they had to dehumanise vast swathes of people, on the grounds of their not having what they thought of as art and culture. There are some that would argue that the ultimate such credo, as regards artists and intellectuals, comes from Nietzsche (this is one of the theses of John Carey's book The Intellectuals and the Masses, an interesting but problematic work); personally I think that's a bit of a one-sided reading of Nietzsche, but would find it hard to deny that such an element pervades his work (he said in The Will to Power 'the great majority of men have no right to existence, but are a misfortune to higher men'). Flaubert, Yeats, Eliot, Pound, Wyndham Lewis, Lawrence, Virginia Woolf, Forster, H.G. Wells. 'Common people' are frequently portrayed as practically subhuman in their books. Today you can find the same in the novels of Martin Amis, say, and in my experience such attitudes are extremely common amongst artists. Lawrence wrote the following in a letter of 1908:

If I had my way, I would build a lethal chamber as big as the Crystal Palace, with a military band playing softly, and a Cinematograph working brightly; then I'd go out in the back streets and main strets and bring them in, all the sick,the halt, and the maimed; I would lead them gently, and they would smile me a weary thanks; and the band would softly bubble out the 'Halelujah Chorus'

Yeats joined the Eugenics Education Society, which aimed to discourage the increase of inferior breeds of human beings. Even a supposed socialist like George Bernard Shaw was sympathetic, as was Huxley. H.G. Wells wrote, in The Open Conspiracy, that in India, North Africa, China and the Far East, 'there goes on a rapid increase of low-grade population, undersized physically and mentally, and retarding the mechanical development of civilization'.

Wilde himself did pronounce (I'm not sure of the source) that 'Aesthetics are higher than ethics'. I could not more profoundly disagree, and think such sentiments are sinister rather than merely misguided.

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Fair point about volunteering at shelters, even if you were scraping the barrel to find it Wink

That's just one of the more obvious examples. I don't see what gives anyone the right to declare others' existences to be meaningless and do think it's telling that some can become very defensive about a mildly critical, half tongue-in-cheek, jibe at an artist, but seem less bothered when such artists themselves dehumanise by implication very large number of people. Not least by making the common individualist fallacy of blaming ordinary people for their own fates under industrial capitalist society. I don't see why Wilde's existence is any more 'meaningful' than anyone else who lived during his time, nor why as a person he is any 'better'. All that counts is his work.

Human beings are more important than art. That's my simple bottom line.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
thompson1780
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« Reply #92 on: 12:22:46, 21-03-2007 »

This thread might develop into the way composers have made fun of other composers' work.

For example, the way Bartok treats Shostakovich's Leningrad theme in his Concerto for Orchestra. Or the quotation from the beginning of Tristan und Isolde in Debussy's Golliwog's Cake-Walk. Might Bartok and Debussy there be said to be camping it up?

Oooh oooh - thank you sooo much for reminding me of that Debussy moment.

I played it in a Trio arrangement with flut'an'arp and had the really cheesy Wagner theme to play myself on Viola.  To my mind it wasn't really a case of camping it up though - I just had a mental image of a critic saying 'Oh listen to that wonderful theme' and Debussy sarcastically mimicking him.

Does camp have sarcasm?

Tommo
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roslynmuse
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« Reply #93 on: 12:46:25, 21-03-2007 »

"Does camp have sarcasm?"

I don't think it has the necessary teeth for the job...  Cheesy rather than  Grin
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #94 on: 13:07:10, 21-03-2007 »

"Does camp have sarcasm?"

I don't think it has the necessary teeth for the job...  Cheesy rather than  Grin

In the case of the Bartok example you cite, I think it does have 'teeth' (I find it hard to hear the Shostakovich in the same way again after hearing that). Whether the Shostakovich itself was intended ironically of course affects all of this. But it depends whether that example counts as camp or satire?
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
George Garnett
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« Reply #95 on: 13:28:07, 21-03-2007 »

My money's on mistaken satire which rebounds on the satirist in this case. Not one of Bartok's finest moments IMHO but maybe that is looking at it from the unfair perspective of now rather than then.

But who comes out of it worst, Shostakovich or Bartok? There's only one way to find out..... See you after the break.

 
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thompson1780
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« Reply #96 on: 13:30:15, 21-03-2007 »

George,

Now that would be a shock if that turned up on Harry Hill's TV burp

Tommo
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time_is_now
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« Reply #97 on: 13:35:13, 21-03-2007 »

But it depends whether that example counts as camp or satire?
I certainly think it would be stretching a point to think of that as anything remotely to do with 'camp'.

I must say, I don't particularly see what there was to satirise either (maybe I'm agreeing with George here?), although by the same token it's not really clear to me why that moment is always taken to be poking fun at or mocking the Shostakovich quotation. Why not hear the trombone 'raspberries' and the banal melody as being 'on the same side', as it were: Bartok's outraged brass, and then his conscription of a quote from a fellow composer in which he perceived an equal irony?


Talking of quotations, btw, I hope Mr Grew won't mind my borrowing a rather lovely sentiment of his for my new signature. I thought it was time to give Vladimir and Estragon a rest, and since I've just found out how to set an avatar I thought I'd choose Schubert (looking, I must say, unusually handsome) as my own private angel.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #98 on: 13:38:16, 21-03-2007 »

But it depends whether that example counts as camp or satire?
I certainly think it would be stretching a point to think of that as anything remotely to do with 'camp'.

I must say, I don't particularly see what there was to satirise either (maybe I'm agreeing with George here?), although by the same token it's not really clear to me why that moment is always taken to be poking fun at or mocking the Shostakovich quotation. Why not hear the trombone 'raspberries' and the banal melody as being 'on the same side', as it were: Bartok's outraged brass, and then his conscription of a quote from a fellow composer in which he perceived an equal irony?

I think there is some quote of Bartok somewhere where he expresses his great distaste for the Shostakovich work, but I can't remember the source of this. That would suggest other than that he's perceiving an 'equal irony'.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
time_is_now
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« Reply #99 on: 14:46:15, 21-03-2007 »

I think there is some quote of Bartok somewhere where he expresses his great distaste for the Shostakovich work, but I can't remember the source of this. That would suggest other than that he's perceiving an 'equal irony'.
I suppose what I was asking is exactly that: whether such a source exists.

Would be interested if anyone knows for certain!
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #100 on: 17:11:54, 21-03-2007 »

I think there is some quote of Bartok somewhere where he expresses his great distaste for the Shostakovich work, but I can't remember the source of this. That would suggest other than that he's perceiving an 'equal irony'.
I suppose what I was asking is exactly that: whether such a source exists.

Would be interested if anyone knows for certain!

Here's what a quick bit of digging uncovers:

The ambiguity about this stems from comments like the following:

‘[Fritz] Reiner had made him [Bartók] listen to this work [Shostakovich Seventh Symphony] on a radio broadcast;” ‘When it was over he never said whether he liked it or not. He was a taciturn man.’ He did indeed rarely give vent to any derogatory views on the music of his contemporaries, but here he breaks his silence musically to scorn the Shostakovich theme with laughter in high woodwind and violinist, blow raspberries at it with trombone glissandos, guy it in barrel-organ style and turn it upside down, after which interruption the intermezzo is resumed.’ (Paul Griffiths – Bartók (London: Dent, 1984), pp. 177-178).

Here are various related quotes on the issue:

Bartok – letter to Wilhelmine Creel – Seattle, December 17, 1944.

‘The first performance of my orchestra work, written in Sept 1943 for the Koussevitzky Foundation took place on Dec. 1.2. in Boston. We went there for the rehearsals and performances – after having obtained the grudgingly granted permission of my doctor for this trip. It was worth wile [sic], the performance was excellent. Koussevitzky is very enthusiastic about the piece, and says it is ‘the best orchestra piece of the last 25 years’ (including the works of his idol Shostakovich!)’

Béla Bartók – Letters, collected, selected, edited and annotated by János Demény, translated Peter Balabán and István Faraks, revised translation Elisabeth West and Colin Mason (London: Faber & Faber, 1971), p. 342.

In an essay about his Russian tour:

‘Shostakovich is most esteemed among the ‘younger’ composers, but this time I heard none of his works.’ (Béla Bartók – Essays, selected and edited by Benjamin Suchoff (Lincoln and London: University of Nebraska Press, 1992), p. 495. The only other mention of Shostakovich in this collection refers to possible transliterations of his name).

In same volume, in Bartók’s Harvard Lectures of 1943, Bartók writes in the context of a discussion of a Mondrian painting that ‘this reduction of means to little more than nothing seems an exaggeration to me. I am only a musician, and I am not competent to judge paintings. But this kind of reduction of means seems to be a rather poor device for satisfactory artistic communication.’ (p. 358, preceding a discussion of Schoenberg and Stravinsky, to Bartók ‘the two leading composers of the past decades’). Peter Laki suggests that this is ‘an oblique criticism of the Shostakovich Seventh Symphony’ (see Laki - Bartók and his World (Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1995), p. 55 n. 33)

In David Cooper and Julian Rushton - Bartók: Concerto for Orchestra (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1996):

‘Doráti declares that Bartók admitted to him that ‘he was caricaturing a tune from Shostakovich’s Seventh Symphony . . . . which was then enjoying great popularity in America, and in his view, more than it merited. “So I gave vent to my anger”, he said.’  (p. 54)
(more from this source later. There is another book on the work by Benjamin Suchoff which I don't have access to at the moment)

‘In a 1942 broadcast of Shostakovich’s (‘Leningrad’) Seventh Symphony Bartók was very surprised to hear repetitions of a theme that ‘sounded like a Viennese cabaret song’, and was to satirize the work by using a variant of this theme as an interruption (from bar 76)..’ (Elliott Antokoletz – ‘Concerto for Orchestra’, in Malcolm Gillies (ed) – The Bartók Companion (London: Faber & Faber, 1993), pp. 533-534.)

Leon Botstein writes that:

‘The antimodernist agitation in the Soviet Union of the 1930s and the Zhdanov decrees of 1948 therefore enhanced the idea that the radical musical modernism of the Second Viennese School was the legitimate aesthetic strategy by which to challenge twentieth-century terror, oppression, and exploitation. Musical modernism could unmask false consciousness and express genuine freedom and individuality. Dmitry Shostakovich’s music, particularly the Seventh Symphony, caricatured by Bartók in the Concerto for Orchestra, had been popular in the 1940s in America as emblematic of the Soviet-American alliance against Hitler. But the 1950s Helm could write that Bartók’s satirical use “may, in fact, constitute the only reason for remembering the Shotakovich Seventh Symphony in the future.’ (Leon Botstein – ‘Out of Hungary: Bartók, Modernism, and the Cultural Politics of Twentieth-Century Music’, in Peter Laki – Bartók and his World (Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1995), p. 7. Helm citation comes from Everett Helm – ‘The Music of Béla Bartók’, in Howard Hartog (ed) - European Music in the Twentieth Century (New York, 1957), p. 32)).

‘In view of the contrast between two performances for Bartók and twenty-eight for Shostakovich that year, the famous Shostakovich parody in the Concerto for Orchestra can hardly come as a surprise (Tibor Tallián – ‘Bartók’s Reception in America, 1940-1945', in Laki, p. 112. Tallián also points out to what extent Shostakovich was praised in reviews from the time as ‘a kind of diplomatic emissary, ex-officio, for the Soviet government’ (which was then a US ally) (ibid).

Importantly:

‘According to the composer’s son, Péter Bartók[16], while the Concerto for Orchestra was in progress Bartók heard a broadcast of the Seventh Symphony of Shostakovich; he found the so-called ‘crescendo theme’ so ludicrous that he decided to burlesque it in his own work. The latter part of the Shostakovich theme appears in all its vapidity.’

[16] In a radio interview, CBS, 19 September 1948. In a letter to the author, Péter Bartók points out that the part of the theme Bartók used was not original with Shostakovich: ‘But in any case I could mention that the famous theme was played much before the Seventh Symphony was written, in the form of Viennese cabaret songs . . . [In the Concerto for Orchestra] the first half of the theme is missing. That half did not originate in Vienna.’

Halsey Stevens – The Life and Music of Béla Bartok , third edition, prepared by Malcolm Gillies (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1993), p. 282, 322 n. 16.

John McCabe. in Bartók Orchestral Music (London: BBC, 1974), also hears the passage as a parody, as do all other writers I have read. There is a qualification from Gyorgy Sandor which I will post later.
« Last Edit: 14:48:21, 22-03-2007 by Ian Pace » Logged

'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
richard barrett
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« Reply #101 on: 17:22:19, 21-03-2007 »

I've read a number of accounts of how Shostakovich's Seventh was massively promoted and done to death in the USA during the war, which may well have incensed Bartók, although I find it strange that this is the only time in his output (correct me if I'm wrong) that he gave vent in this kind of way to feelings about another composer's work. (It's more the kind of thing Shostakovich himself might do, as in his deflation of Khachaturian's "Sabre Dance" in his Eighth and no doubt numerous other places I can't bring to mind.) To my ears that passage in Bartók's Concerto spoils what is otherwise quite an interesting work, not because it's a dig at Shostakovich but because it seems in itself so crass and out of place.
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time_is_now
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« Reply #102 on: 18:17:58, 21-03-2007 »

find it strange that this is the only time in his output (correct me if I'm wrong) that he gave vent in this kind of way to feelings about another composer's work.
Yes, that's what I find strange too.

I don't particularly find it spoils the work, but even if I did, I think I'd find the 'raspberries' as crude as what they're supposedly mocking, which (as I said earlier) makes me wonder if both the raspberries and the 'quote' aren't meant to be mocking something entirely different (fascism, for example - which might be worth 'spoiling' an otherwise aesthetically 'well-behaved' work for, to the extent that not to mock it would be to adopt a false consciousness about its relevance to a concert work composed in wartime. But then we're back in controversial waters, aren't we Wink ).
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« Reply #103 on: 19:45:52, 21-03-2007 »

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It was, in fact the windmills of C19th mass-production against Wilde was tilting, setting down his credo of individuality and the importance of art, against a sea of mediocrity and dross.

As did a great many artists of that period (and since). But in the process of doing so, they had to dehumanise vast swathes of people, on the grounds of their not having what they thought of as art and culture.

This is a non-sequitur - a does not arise from b. Nor is there any word from the "great many artists of that period" (and who are this group, I would like to know?) that they planned any "dehumanising".  You've made this up, Ian.

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There are some that would argue that the ultimate such credo, as regards artists and intellectuals, comes from Nietzsche

Who was not an artist of any kind.

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Lawrence wrote the following in a letter of 1908

Fascinating, but we were talking about Wilde, not Lawrence.  You can't just use any old quotation from anyone vaguely contemporaneous to prove your points, Ian.   There is no evidence of any kind of a Nietschean influence on Wilde, nor of Lawrence either.  I fear I can see why you find Wilde so patently distasteful - as you've tarred every British literary figure 1850-1914 with the same brush.

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Yeats

How did we get onto Yeats?

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Wilde himself did pronounce (I'm not sure of the source) that 'Aesthetics are higher than ethics'. I could not more profoundly disagree, and think such sentiments are sinister rather than merely misguided.

You can't have your cake and eat it, Ian.  One moment you are writing Wilde off because of his failure to condemn the ethics of his era (British Imperialism, as an Irishman - you remember this, I hope?).  Now you find him doing your bidding - and call him "sinister" for his troubles?

It may of course be that having had to live his personal life in the shadows, and then finally being banged up in Reading Gaol for an act that would not be illegal today,  that Wilde had good reason to be sceptical about the contemporary mores and ethics of his time... and saw the pure-intentioned aims of his art has lacking the cant and hypocrisy of an era that covered the legs of pianos for the sake of modesty?

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I don't see what gives anyone the right to declare others' existences to be meaningless

You mean, for example, writing off the output of one of Ireland's greatest writers as "bollocks"?  Is that not, perhaps, a demeaning judgement?

 
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I don't see why Wilde's existence is any more 'meaningful' than anyone else who lived during his time, nor why as a person he is any 'better'. All that counts is his work.

I don't believe Wilde ever said anything of the kind.  You must be confusing him with Yeats. Or Nietszche. Or one of those blokes from the C19th.

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SimonSagt!
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« Reply #104 on: 22:12:01, 21-03-2007 »

Ref Ian's #91

I agree that reading such points into Nietzsche is at best one-sided: reading much of any sort into Nietzsche is often frustrating and almost always, eventually, a waste of time given a] his earlier inanity and b] his later insanity. Poor chap: in his efforts to be so superior in the face of a pointless and "Godless" universe, he snapped. That's a tragedy in anyone's book. The more so for being self-inflicted.

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More than sinister, Ian. Positively evil. To be fought at all costs.

====

Your final comment is of course a given: it is when a fellow human's humanity is forgotten or ignored - often, sadly, on the excuse of a "greater good" - that so many of the tragedies of life appear.

How nice to agree with you again!

bws S-S!
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