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Author Topic: Messiaen & Nono festivals  (Read 2850 times)
Turfan Fragment
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Posts: 1330


Formerly known as Chafing Dish


« Reply #105 on: 19:48:50, 30-06-2008 »

I only posted a few octatonic 'minus 1' collections - seven-tone scales resulting from octatonic scales losing one note. And that only because the harp has 7 pedals and translates any scale into an essentially diatonic (i.e. one note name per scale member) collection.

The octatonic is easily constructed. It is an alternation of whole and half steps. There are essentially 3 possibilities, assuming enharmonic equivalences (as most composers in the 20th century are wont to do)

C_D^Eb_F^F#_G#^A_B

C^Db_Eb^E_F#^G_A^Bb

and

C#^D_E^F_G^Ab_Bb^B

But this is not the only scale Messiaen ever used, naturally. He also used many diatonic collections and much more. You can read more about his scale vocabulary, as martle pointed out, in La technique de mon langage musical. I just tried a link to a free e-copy of this book, but it quit my browser quite violently. Still, as mart says, it's a quick read.

Not all of Messiaen's scales are 'of limited transposition' -- but that term does stem from him, just like non-retrogradeable rhythm. Both terms are potentially confusing. A 'non-retrogradeable rhythm' is one that is identical if read backwards, i.e., a rhythmic palindrome. That doesn't mean it can't be written in retrograde, just that the retrograde is indistinguishable from the original form

Similarly, there are no actual limits to the transpositional possibilities of the whole tone or the octatonic scale, just that the whole tone scale, when transposed up or down by any multiple of a whole step, results in the same pitch content as the original. And the octatonic is identical if transposed by a minor third or a tritone in either direction.

Another mode of limited transposition is the following: C Eb E G Ab B
which is identical to its own transposition by a major third in either direction.
Does this make sense?
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trained-pianist
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Posts: 5455



« Reply #106 on: 20:03:13, 30-06-2008 »

Thank you martle and Turfan Fragment.

The strange thing is that I understand what you are saying. I am so happy. It is a crash course in Messiaen octatonic scale. This is how he achieves such a unique sound.

Can I say to my students that Debussy uses modes (modal scales)? I don't want to say something stupid.

I am fascinated with Messiaen scales (alternating tone and semitone).

I have a student that buys theory books (or he can fetch some free on the net).

I am glad that I can grasp even little.
The sensitive student can improvise on the piano for hours. I can open her horizon with octatonic scale.
If they are interested they will go to concerts.
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Turfan Fragment
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Posts: 1330


Formerly known as Chafing Dish


« Reply #107 on: 02:06:46, 01-07-2008 »

Both Debussy and Messiaen use so-called Modal scales, though that's a large set of scales indeed. They both also use whole-tone and octatonic scales, though in Debussy they're slightly harder to find.

It would be misleading to call them Messiaen scales, though, in case that wasn't clear -- they show up in Stravinsky, Bartok, and more haphazardly in other contemporaries and even earlier composers.
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martle
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« Reply #108 on: 09:12:38, 01-07-2008 »

It would be misleading to call them Messiaen scales, though, in case that wasn't clear -- they show up in Stravinsky, Bartok, and more haphazardly in other contemporaries and even earlier composers.

Indeed, fantastically ubiquitous in all manner of C20th music. And the octatonic scale is a meat-and-potatoes scale for a lot of jazz harmony too.
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Green. Always green.
autoharp
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Posts: 2778



« Reply #109 on: 09:36:50, 01-07-2008 »

To add to posts by members Fragment and Martle -

Imagine a diminished seventh chord (say C Eb F# and A) and then join the notes with passing notes. The result is the tone/semitone octatonic scale - so there are hints in both Mozart + Beethoven. Liszt developed it and then Rimsky-Korsakov. And then . . .  well here's a quote from the Felix Petyrek thread (20th century) which mentions a few other composers

Of particular interest is that [Petyrek's] Third Sonata (and other works?) seems to mark him out as a serious Mode 2 merchant, in common with several fascinating composers of that time or just before/after it. I'm thinking not only of such as Ravel and Stravinsky (not Debussy, despite Allan Forte's attempts to convince the world otherwise), but also Lili Boulanger, Protopopov, Ornstein, Frank Martin, Bloch (of the 1st violin sonata), Schulhoff (e.g., piano concerto), Pijper - let alone Scriabin (if one can ignore Dernova's theories for the moment) and various Russian followers - and no doubt a few others whom I've forgotten. I seem to remember a reference to this scale in Nicolas Slonimsky's Music since 1900 where he mentions Pijper, Petyrek and Ludomir Rogowski - not heard a note of this last composer: has anyone else?

So there's a considerable prehistory. Some composers since have based entire pieces on just one version of the scale, notably Lou Harrison (middle movement of Double concerto for violin, cello and Javanese gamelan and the 2nd movement of the Grand Duo for violin and piano).

Here's the Grand Duo example - oh, and there's lots of additional clustery stuff in the piano part produced by the pianist using an implement akin to a blackboard rubber.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/xxvnbj

and if you work in an academic institution, you may be able to access this which is of some interest

http://www.jstor.org/pss/960176
« Last Edit: 09:53:38, 01-07-2008 by autoharp » Logged
trained-pianist
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Posts: 5455



« Reply #110 on: 09:47:28, 01-07-2008 »

Now I remember that my students who like jazz mentioned octatonics, but I kind of missed it.
And now they came up here.One can use octatonics for different effects.
Also it is interesting to compare how composers develop their material.

There is such a deep intellectual work involved in writing music (good music), but the result can make an effect on different levels (for most on intuitive level). However one has to know what one wants to say and discover new sounds, one can not stamble on it.
Messian music makes such a striking effect on me that I can never understand. I seems to find opening to God, unity of souls.
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #111 on: 11:30:17, 01-07-2008 »

You can read more about his [Messiaen's] scale vocabulary, as martle pointed out, in La technique de mon langage musical. I just tried a link to a free e-copy of this book, but it quit my browser quite violently. Still, as Mart says, it's a quick read.

Try here (47,907,626 bytes). It is large because of all the musical examples.
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trained-pianist
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Posts: 5455



« Reply #112 on: 15:35:52, 01-07-2008 »

Mr Sydney Grew,
Thank you for your generosity in sharing Messiaen's book.
I already discovered that the book is out of print and to buy it used will cost a lot of money.

This is going to be my project for the summer.

I don't know how to thank you all for your explanations.Autoharp explanation is amazing revelation for me. I am so grateful that you took time to write.
 
I loved Lou Harrison's Duo for Violin and Piano. That could be a good project for my violinist and myself. I will see what he thinks about it.
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