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martle
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« Reply #90 on: 09:14:42, 30-06-2008 » |
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even in his earlier pieces for orchestra, he never once used the timpani; and he must be the only significant French composer in modern times whose entire published output contains not a single note for the harp.
Yes, I don't think I'd realised that either. But I'm not sure the reason for this has much to do with Messiaen's harmonic practice. After all, at least three of his modes (of limited transposition), including the ubiquitous octatonic scale, pose no problems to harp tuning. And there was nothing (usually, I imagine) stopping him from using two harps to get around the problem otherwise (as many other composers have done since Berlioz). |
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richard barrett
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« Reply #91 on: 10:12:21, 30-06-2008 » |
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[at least three of his modes (of limited transposition), including the ubiquitous octatonic scale, pose no problems to harp tuning. Call me obtuse but I don't see how one could play an octatonic scale on a pedal harp...  On the other hand, given OM's extravagant attitude towards orchestration, I wouldn't have put it past him to ask for six harps if he'd fancied the idea. |
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #92 on: 10:35:26, 30-06-2008 » |
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he never once used the timpani Not absolutely true I think - I'm pretty sure at least one of the early orchestral pieces has a timpani part. That at least is my memory of the result last time I checked this contention for myself but should my wanderings in the next couple of days take me past scores of same I'll check again. There are pizzicato passages here and there in the orchestral music especially in the basses as I'm sure you've spotted by now.  My memory is trawling up various passages from Des Canyons but isn't being kind enough to identify them just now... |
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time_is_now
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« Reply #93 on: 10:45:07, 30-06-2008 » |
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Call me obtuse but I don't see how one could play an octatonic scale on a pedal harp... Neither do I, I'm afraid.  Although I think M's right, this isn't likely to be the main reason for not using them. Ollie, you may be right about the timpani. I'm not sure quite where I came up with that piece of information from (I must have thought about checking it once, but I don't have scores of the early pieces or an easily readable Messiaen worklist * so I'm not quite sure where I did so). *Or is there one in the back of Hill/Simeone? I don't remember it having orchestration if so, but I'm in Manchester at the moment. |
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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autoharp
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« Reply #94 on: 10:45:35, 30-06-2008 » |
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L'Ascension uses timps.
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martle
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« Reply #95 on: 10:46:39, 30-06-2008 » |
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[at least three of his modes (of limited transposition), including the ubiquitous octatonic scale, pose no problems to harp tuning. Call me obtuse but I don't see how one could play an octatonic scale on a pedal harp... Good golly, you're right RB! And there I am teaching students what turns out to be baloney.  Back to the books for me. Pizzicato - yes, there's that one movement in Turangalila that features a mini 'jazz' ensemble at the opening, complete with a descending scale on solo pizz. bass... |
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time_is_now
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« Reply #96 on: 10:49:08, 30-06-2008 » |
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L'Ascension uses timps.
Autoharp to the rescue again. Merci Monsieur Jones. |
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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autoharp
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« Reply #97 on: 10:51:12, 30-06-2008 » |
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[at least three of his modes (of limited transposition), including the ubiquitous octatonic scale, pose no problems to harp tuning. Call me obtuse but I don't see how one could play an octatonic scale on a pedal harp... Good golly, you're right RB! And there I am teaching students what turns out to be baloney. Back to the books for me. But on the other hand, it's not necessary to use all of the notes all of the time. I bet that Tony Webern never used a harp . . . |
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #98 on: 10:54:18, 30-06-2008 » |
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He did in fact, at the very least in one of those collections of songs (op. 15 or so?).
The Stravinsky Epitaphium has one too. I think the harp plays three bars, each with five pedal changes.
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autoharp
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« Reply #99 on: 10:57:24, 30-06-2008 » |
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He did in fact, at the very least in one of those collections of songs (op. 15 or so?).
So you've never played his Symphony? |
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #100 on: 11:02:11, 30-06-2008 » |
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No and I'm nowhere near my library of either CDs or scores. But I have a very clear memory of playing those songs in an ensemble with a harp in it. |
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autoharp
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« Reply #101 on: 11:08:36, 30-06-2008 » |
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No and I'm nowhere near my library of either CDs or scores. But I have a very clear memory of playing those songs in an ensemble with a harp in it. You're perfectly correct, of course. In fact, Tony used harp quite often. As did many of those 12-note + mode 2 merchants. Thought: I must be less ironic in future. |
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Turfan Fragment
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« Reply #102 on: 14:35:08, 30-06-2008 » |
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C#-D-E-F-G-Ab-Bb-B C-Db-Eb-Fb-Gb-A-Bb or C#-D#-E-F#-G-A-Bb hmm I was just going to claim that ANY seven of the notes of any octatonic scale could be made available to the pedal harp with sufficient preparation, but that's nowhere near the case.  Oh, pluckety pluck. EDIT: underlined portion originally omitted. |
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« Last Edit: 19:33:08, 30-06-2008 by Turfan Fragment »
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trained-pianist
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« Reply #103 on: 19:27:15, 30-06-2008 » |
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A student of mine is asking me to explain difference between Messiaen and Debussy methods of writing music.
Turfan Fragment wrote Messiaen scales.
I am just asking to help me explain is a simple way.
I can say that Messiaen sometimes repeats the same segment (in a way similar to ostinato). But I don't understand what kind of scale he is using.
Are those scales Messiaen inventions and are not used by other composers?
I already used Massiaen Prelude on my lesson with a student. There are people that are sensitive. The sensitive one did not ask analitical questions, but there are some Engineering students that are very analitical (more than I am).
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« Last Edit: 19:33:11, 30-06-2008 by trained-pianist »
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martle
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« Reply #104 on: 19:36:18, 30-06-2008 » |
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Hi t-p
Messaien famously wrote a text book about how he composed called 'Treatise on my Musical Language'. It's actually very easy to understand. In that book he lists the 'scales', or modes, that he uses, calling them 'modes of limited transposition'. That means they can transposed a small number of times before you get exactly the same pitches again - unlike the major or minor scale, which can be transposed 12 times, starting on any pitch in the chromatic scale. The first two of those modes were familiar ones to Debussy too -
1) the whole tone scale - C D E Gb Ab Bb C (can only be transposed once)
2) the octatonic scale - C D Eb F Gb Ab A B C (can only be transposed twice)
Messaien used these modes to create his melodies and harmony.
There's a lot of stuff in the book about his rhythmic language, too.
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Green. Always green.
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