My guess is that the "standard" order is to do with "standard" lengths of works ie 10mins plus 30mins plus 45mins. Concertos longer than 35mins usually end up in the 2nd half - Brahms Violin/ Piano Concs, Beethoven Violin; symphonies under 35mins, of a certain character (Mozart, Haydn, Schubert 1 - 6, Beethoven 1 and 2, even Sibelius 3 or 6 (but not 4, 5 or 7) sometimes find their way into part 1.

It's all those interesting 20 - 25 mins orchestral pieces I feel sorry for - where is their natural home?!!

Mary, I think you've hit on a profound point there re: why some mainstream music remains obscure. And as
occasionally one of the trombonists who legs it back from the pub for the 2nd half,RT, totally agree, the convention of concert
progs in a particular mode can be baleful, and the slotting of staples into that mode. I guess in Russia you have an equivalent of the Blue Rinse set who like what they know etc. Dear old Rhapsody in Blue
can get quite sedate these days, and I have developed an allergy to Dvorak 8 after the first 6 bars-if I have to do it I go into a sort of zen trance, knowing when to come in all too well. re; concertos, occasionally you get a spellbinding soloist who makes
it a privilege to play your few notes and listen from a sometimes acoustically-advantaged position.
In Brighton over the weekend I dicovered that Roedean School is doing a fringe performance of 1812, which is a sobering prospect. Henry Kelly may actually  be fired from a canon (a propulsion devoutly to be wished).Some good stuff on this year, particularly on the fringe,from May 3rd I think, I will probably start a thread in a bit if no-one else does.

I suspect I am in an eccentric and/or philistine minority on this but I never take much notice at all of 'programme building' (my apologies to all those who expend so much care and effort on it). As far as I am concerned I go along to hear the individual works and try to listen to each one, on its own terms, as it comes along. As a result I'm never really fussed at all about the order, or what has carefully been juxtaposed with what. I'm afraid I make it my business to un-juxtapose it all as far as possible and just listen to each piece as an independent event  -  with the appropriate set of period ears clipped on for each piece.

Come to think of it, I now realise I do just the same with exhibitions and galleries. I'm terribly sorry but I upset all the good intentions and hard work of exhibition curators by deliberately trying to block out all the didactic stuff about 'x' being an example of 'y', and I try just to look at 'x'  - at least during the precious moments when I'm actually privileged to be in front of 'x'. All the hectoring thematic stuff and 'a' influenced 'b' is for before and after.

I think I had assumed (as you tend to about your own ingrained habits) that everyone else did this too but it seems not so. The institutions of 'the concert' and 'concert-going', and 'the exhibition' and 'going to a gallery', just get in the way as far as I am concerned of the thing itself. And as for 'the song recital'.... ; I'm afraid the whole institution makes me cringe and I usually want to be somewhere else; but, for me anyway, it's the price you have to pay for being in the same space as someone singing all these wonderful songs.

Please tell me I'm not that unusual.

Actually, to return to Mary's question, for those of us of a fragile social disposition who get anxious about these things, there is one big drawback of the Overture, Concerto, Symphony format. An overture lures people into thinking you should clap when the music gets loud and then stops suddenly; so you never quite know until you have made it, preferably without incident, into the slow movement of the concerto that everyone knows that this is merely a cruel trick for the unwary. Even then the concerto sets an unfortunate precedent for clapping at the end of the cheerful third movement, so there's still the trap of the symphony's fourth movement to negotiate. Treacherous waters indeed for the unwary and intense social anxiety for the rest of us. I sometimes wonder how I actually summon up the courage to go at all. My solution would be to insist that all concerts should start with a Haydn symphony .

It would be interesting if they started a concert with Haydn's Farewell symphony, wouldn't it?

Dunno that this bothers me a lot. It's a bit like dining out - starters, main, pud. Sometimes the pud is the crowning glory, more often the main course, if you're lucky the starters is to die for. I select my concerts (mainly Proms) like I select my dinners - what appeals to me most as a good combination, hopefully with the whole being greater than the sum of the parts.

George (but possibly not Reiner) would have liked Prom 14 last year - Haydn symphony 94, George Benjamin - Dance Figures, Brahms PC 1. Me, I went for a number 33 - Ravel, Dutilleux, Ravel, Roussel; 36 - Sibelius, Dillon, Stravinsky followed by a late supper (37) of Steve Reich. And 70 - just the main, no starters or pud - Mahler 2 (much reviled by all who listened on the radio, enormously enjoyed by those who were there).

I'm a bit in the Garnett camp here. I actually intensely dislike many aspects of concert-going, and on the whole try to avoid it. But you can't always; and some concert programmes simply demand to be attended. I do go to hear a single, or multiple, pieces, but not usually to hear a 'programme'. And I agree with those who have said that the concept of a 'programme' is in any case something of a chimera - do you really hear the connections/ themes (ugh)/ contrasts/ historical sedimentations etc. that are intended, half the time? I don't. In the 19th C you would get an ad hoc mix of symphonic snippets, serenades, arias, ovetures etc.; and be able to chat to the charming contessa to your right during and in between the numbers. Much more like our current club or cabaret culture. (And here I am, advising performance students on how to build responsible and coherent programmes. Oh, the hypocrisy!)

Reiner no offence mate, I was just thinking of your 'time machine' comment q;o)