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Author Topic: Christopher Tye  (Read 1375 times)
Kittybriton
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« Reply #15 on: 02:08:42, 16-05-2007 »

Thanks for straightening me out HH. No wonder aforementioned editor was keen to give me an additional posterior orifice!
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Chafing Dish
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« Reply #16 on: 12:53:11, 25-05-2007 »

Am now looking into the Tye In Nomines and am enjoying them a great deal. I am put off by the meters, though, and want to see some original manuscripts (in facsimile, of course, though I wouldn't object to the originals either!). In "Trust", can anyone explain why the modern editors moved from 5/4 to 4/4 and back again, even if the 2nd voice remains in durations of 4+1? Is that indicated in the originals?

Does anyone know the music of Juan de Encinas? I only bring him up because it's the first and only instance I'd found where modern editors included barlines and scrupulously assigned them by the 'implicit' meter of the individual voices, even if this meant different barlines for each voice. It gives the impression that Juan was thinking in poly-meter, which is another one of those lovely anachronisms.

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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #17 on: 17:45:28, 25-05-2007 »

Am now looking into the Tye In Nomines and am enjoying them a great deal. I am put off by the meters, though, and want to see some original manuscripts (in facsimile, of course, though I wouldn't object to the originals either!). In "Trust", can anyone explain why the modern editors moved from 5/4 to 4/4 and back again, even if the 2nd voice remains in durations of 4+1? Is that indicated in the originals?
In the edition at which I am looking, it's in 5/4 throughout. Does anyone know if the cut C sort of stands for 'something else'? It's-not-in-any-of-the-established-prolation/mensuration-schemes,-we-haven't-invented-time-signatures-yet,-so-it's-in-'something else',-oh-shove-a-cut-C-in-there-and-that'll-do sort of thing.
Will endeavour to scan the facimile of 'Trust' in later on today.
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'is this all we can do?'
anonymous student of the University of Berkeley, California quoted in H. Draper, 'The new student revolt' (New York: Grove Press, 1965)
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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #18 on: 21:11:37, 27-05-2007 »

OK, as promised, here is the facsimile of Trust (click on it for the full-size image):



And the first part of Sit Fast:

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'is this all we can do?'
anonymous student of the University of Berkeley, California quoted in H. Draper, 'The new student revolt' (New York: Grove Press, 1965)
http://www.myspace.com/itensemble
Chafing Dish
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« Reply #19 on: 16:37:07, 28-05-2007 »

Thank you, harmonyharmony. I appreciate your making this facsimile available. Incidentally, my Cryptic Clue answer is Heinz Holliger.

size comparison verdict is "huger" minus you = u plus (ollie minus e)
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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #20 on: 16:57:42, 28-05-2007 »

Gah!
I had 'ollier' written on a piece of paper next to my computer!
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'is this all we can do?'
anonymous student of the University of Berkeley, California quoted in H. Draper, 'The new student revolt' (New York: Grove Press, 1965)
http://www.myspace.com/itensemble
JeanHartrick
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« Reply #21 on: 22:03:32, 12-10-2008 »

(Even if I am 120 days late!)

Tye's Mass 'Euge Bone' is one of the finest of early Tudor mass settings.
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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #22 on: 22:10:34, 12-10-2008 »

Tye's Mass 'Euge Bone' is one of the finest of early Tudor mass settings.

I don't know it. I see it's on Naxos though...

Until I started looking at the In Nomines (prompted by Ferneyhough's use of them) I was only really aware of the bleeding chunks of The Acts of the Apostles that had found their way into choral anthem anthologies. Seems a shame when there's so much good music.
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'is this all we can do?'
anonymous student of the University of Berkeley, California quoted in H. Draper, 'The new student revolt' (New York: Grove Press, 1965)
http://www.myspace.com/itensemble
Kittybriton
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« Reply #23 on: 22:16:28, 12-10-2008 »

a mere 120 days, pah! Thank you for finding this thread for me (I somehow lost track of it) Jean.

And Euge Bone, yes. Perhaps I should pay Chris a visit sometime.
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JeanHartrick
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« Reply #24 on: 22:20:48, 12-10-2008 »

I think Tye is one of those composers who straddled the Reformation; his early work is in the more florid early Tudor style, but his later work is quite plain and boring.

He doesn't seem to have forged a later style as fine as Tallis's.

Or am I making that up?
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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #25 on: 08:27:26, 14-10-2008 »

I'm not an expert on this period, let alone this composer, but a quick scan of the article in Grove suggests that part of the problem is that not a lot of his music has survived. He died before Byrd and Tallis got their monopoly on printing, which (possibly?) ensured why we have so much music by those two.
He seems to have been a very different man to Tallis. Close to the court of Edward VI, and close to his religious ideas, he became an Anglican priest in the reign of Elizabeth I.
I'm not sure which works you're classifying as early or late here.
Euge Bone was written during the reign of Mary and is apparently the most 'modern' work that survives, but sits alongside much that is written in an older style. Grove says that most of his English choral music dates from the reign of Edward.

The conclusion of the article is quite interesting, saying:

Quote from: Paul Doe and David Mateer. "Tye, Christopher." Grove Music Online. Oxford Music Online. 14 Oct. 2008 <http://www.oxfordmusiconline.com/subscriber/article/grove/music/28665>.
Tye was clearly a composer of great talent, who could readily master the latest continental techniques in the 1530s, formulate new genres for the Anglican Church, and develop the In Nomine in an individual way. But he was fluent only within well-defined limits, for certain types of imitative and other procedures constantly recur in his music, which thus assumes a professional but slightly routine quality, lacking the rugged freshness and insularity of Sheppard, or the quiet poetic mastery of his exact contemporary, Tallis. The scant evidence of his character suggests that he was perhaps an opportunist, who liked life at the court, was not prepared to carry his Protestant principles to the extent of sharing the Marian exile of his patron, Cox, and who finally adopted the priesthood as a means of easy retirement rather than as a vocation.
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'is this all we can do?'
anonymous student of the University of Berkeley, California quoted in H. Draper, 'The new student revolt' (New York: Grove Press, 1965)
http://www.myspace.com/itensemble
David_Underdown
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« Reply #26 on: 15:24:05, 14-10-2008 »

I've sung some Tye, a Western Wind parody mass and something else that escapes me at the moment.  It was part of the Oundle Festival, performed liturgically in Fotheringhay Church, getting as close to a Sarum Mass as we could whilst still being a CofE service.  The conductor was chap from Magdalen Oxfford who is a leading authroity on Tye.
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David
JeanHartrick
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« Reply #27 on: 16:40:47, 14-10-2008 »

I had forgotten the 'Western Wind' mass - it's one of three, isn't it, the others being the better-known one by Taverner, and by Sheppard.

And they're the only examples of parody masses by English composers, I believe.

Is it in the Tye that the 'tune' is in the alto part throughout?   
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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #28 on: 17:34:50, 14-10-2008 »

This is where my ignorance comes to the fore.
And I've left the book that might have been useful at work... (which also means that I'll have to entirely plan the Palestrina part of my lecture tomorrow)

Here's what Grove lists as his (complete?) works:

Quote from: Paul Doe and David Mateer. "Tye, Christopher." Grove Music Online. Oxford Music Online. 14 Oct. 2008 <http://www.oxfordmusiconline.com/subscriber/article/grove/music/28665>
Editions
Christopher Tye: The Instrumental Music: ed. R.W. Weidner, RRMR, iii (1967) [W]
Christopher Tye: The Latin Church Music, ed. J. Satterfield, RRMR, xiii–xiv (1972) [S i–ii]
Christopher Tye: English Sacred Music, ed. J. Morehen, EECM, xix (1977) [M]
Christopher Tye: Masses, ed. P. Doe, EECM, xxiv (1980) [DM]
Christopher Tye: Ritual Music and Motets, ed. N. Davison, EECM, xxxiii (1987) [DR]
Elizabethan Consort Music II, ed. P. Doe, MB, xlv (1988) [DE]

Latin church music
Alleluia [Per te Dei genetrix], 4vv, S ii, DR
Ave caput Christi, 6vv, GB-Ob Mus.Sch.E.423 (single voice); opening, 3vv, S ii, DR
Cantate Domino (Ps cxlix), 6vv, DR (lacks T)
Christus resurgens, 6vv, Ob Mus.Sch.E.423 (single voice); DR
Domine Deus caelestis, 6vv, Ob Mus.Sch.E.423 (single voice); 2 sections, 3vv, S ii, DR
Gloria laus et honor, 4vv, S ii, DR
In pace [in idipsum], 4vv, S ii, DR
In quo corrigit (Ps cxviii.9), 6vv, Ob Mus.Sch.E.423 (single voice); 2 verses, 3vv, S ii, DR
Kyrie ‘Orbis factor’, 4vv, S ii, DR
Magnificat (i), 6vv, Ob Mus.Sch.E.423 (single voice); Quia fecit, 4vv, S ii, DR
Magnificat (ii), 6vv, Ob Mus.Sch.E.423 (single voice), Tenbury 354–8 (Esurientes, 4vv, attrib. Parsons)
Mass ‘Euge bone’, 6vv, S i, DM
Mass ‘Western Wind’, 4vv, S i, DM
Mass, 5vv (lacks T), DM
Miserere mei, Deus (Ps lvi), 5vv, S ii, DR
Omnes gentes, plaudite (Ps xlvi), 5vv, S ii, DR
Peccavimus cum patribus, 7vv, S ii, DR
[Post partum virgo …], inc.; Tellus flumina, 3vv, Unde nostris, 4vv, S ii, DR
Quaesumus omnipotens, 6vv (lacks T), DR
[Salve regina] Ad te clamamus exules, 5vv, S ii, DR
Sub tuam protectionem, 4vv, S ii, DR
Te Deum, 6vv, Ob Mus.Sch.E.423 (single voice); DR

English church music
The Actes of the Apostles, translated into English Metre … 4vv (London, 1553) (metrical version of Acts i–xiv with a musical setting of 2 stanzas of each; hymn tunes and other items adapted from this collection not listed here), M
Blessed are all they, 4vv, M
Christ rising, 6vv (lacks 2nd B), M
Deliver us, good Lord, 4vv, M
From the depth I called to thee, 4vv, M
Give alms of thy goods, 4vv, M
If ye be risen again, 4vv, M
I have loved, 4vv, M
I lift my heart to thee [=Amavit eum Dominus; O Lord, deliver me], 5vv, M
I will exalt thee [= I will magnify thee], 4vv, M
Magnificat and Nunc dimittis, 4vv (derived from Parsley's Morning Service; attrib. Parsley in DRc A6 but Tye in other sources), M; alternative version of Nunc dimittis, M
My trust, O Lord, 5vv, M
Nunc dimittis, 4vv, M
O God, be merciful unto us, 4vv (2 versions), M
O Lord, deliver me [=I lift my heart to thee], 5vv, M
O Lord of Hosts, 4vv (attrib. Sheppard in 15638), M
Praise ye the Lord, ye children, 4vv, M
Save me, O God, for thy name’s sake, 4vv, M
To Father, Son and Holy Ghost [=Laudes Deo], 5vv, M

Consort music
all a 5 unless otherwise stated
Amavit [eum Dominus] [= I lift my heart to thee] (not on c.f.), W, DE
Christus resurgens, W, DE
Dum transisset (i), W, DE
Dum transisset (ii), W, DE
Dum transisset (iii), W, DE
Dum transisset (iv), W, DE
Fantasia [=Rubum quem]
In Nomine, ‘Beleve me’, W, DE
In Nomine, ‘Blamles’, W, DE
In Nomine, ‘Crye’, W, DE
In Nomine, ‘Farewell my good 1. for ever’, W, DE
In Nomine, ‘Follow me’, W, DE
In Nomine, ‘Free from all’, W, DE
In Nomine, ‘Howld fast’, W, DE
In Nomine, ‘I come’, W, DE
In Nomine, ‘My deathe bedde’, W, DE
In Nomine, ‘My farrewell’, Ob Tenbury 1464 (B only)
In Nomine, ‘Rachells weepinge’, W, DE
In Nomine, ‘Re la re’, W, DE
In Nomine, ‘Reporte’, W, DE
In Nomine, ‘Rounde’, W, DE
In Nomine, ‘Saye so’, W, DE
In Nomine, ‘Seldom sene’, W, DE
In Nomine, ‘Surrexit non est hic’, W, DE
In Nomine, ‘The flatts’, Ob Tenbury 1464 (B only)
In Nomine, ‘Trust’, W, DE
In Nomine, ‘Weepe no more Rachell’, W, DE
In Nomine, a 4, W, DE
In Nomine, a 5, W, DE
In Nomine, a 6, W, DE
In Nomine, Ob Tenbury 1464 (B only)
Lawdes Deo [= To Father, Son and Holy Ghost] (not on c.f.), W, DE
O lux beata Trinitas, a 5, DE
Rubum quem [viderat Moyses] [= Fantasia, Sol mi ut] (not on c.f.), W, DE
Sit fast, a 3 (exercise in proportions), W, DE
Sol mi ut [= Rubum quem]

Misattributed works
Ascendo [ad Patrem meum], attrib. Tye in GB-Och 984–8, is by Maillart
Et cum pro nobis, attrib. Tye in Och 979–83, Lbl R.M.24.d.2, is a section of Taverner's O splendor gloriae
Haste thee, O God, attrib. Tye in EL 4 (now in Cu), Och 88, is by Sheppard
Jesum Nazarenum, attrib. Tye in Lbl Add.31226, is a section from Byrd's Turbarum voces in passione Domini secundum Ioannem

No info on dates for individual works.
Wish that my institution's library was better stocked for stuff like this, but I'll be heading down to Durham in a couple of weeks so I may well have a look there.
I'll be looking out for some of the books listed in the bibliography of the article (which I can reproduce if people are interested...).
It's such a fascinating period for English music (actually, I find the course of British music up to around Handel's time to be absolutely fascinating generally, but perhaps this period even more so) and if I could clone myself, I would certainly send a clone off to research the period more thoroughly!
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'is this all we can do?'
anonymous student of the University of Berkeley, California quoted in H. Draper, 'The new student revolt' (New York: Grove Press, 1965)
http://www.myspace.com/itensemble
harmonyharmony
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« Reply #29 on: 17:42:19, 14-10-2008 »

I had forgotten the 'Western Wind' mass - it's one of three, isn't it, the others being the better-known one by Taverner, and by Sheppard.

And they're the only examples of parody masses by English composers, I believe.

Is it in the Tye that the 'tune' is in the alto part throughout?   

Sorry to quote Grove again, but it knows better than me and answers your question:

Quote from: Hugh Benham. "Western Wind." Grove Music Online. Oxford Music Online. 14 Oct. 2008 <http://www.oxfordmusiconline.com/subscriber/article/grove/music/30174>
Taverner, Tye and Sheppard all repeat the cantus firmus throughout their masses, making small rhythmic changes to accommodate new sets of words, and introducing differences of melodic detail at cadences. All three composers sometimes omit the third phrase of the cantus firmus. Whereas Taverner’s mass often has the melody in the treble, but sometimes in tenor or bass, Tye’s restricts it to the mean (beginning on D), and Sheppard’s nearly always has it in the treble. Various two- and three-part scorings are exploited in addition to four-part writing.

The use of a secular cantus firmus, though common on the Continent, was apparently an innovation in the Tudor mass. No close parallel exists even there, however, for the type of variation technique employed in the Western Wind masses. A connection has been suggested, however, with the use of well-known secular tunes in Lutheran sacred music. Overt Lutheran influence on liturgy and worship in England is thought to have been possible in the late 1530s and early 1540s, and the masses may date from that time, that of Taverner (the oldest composer) probably being the earliest.

It's not a parody mass though, is it?
It would need to be based on a polyphonic original to fulfil the criteria, whereas the Western Wind masses are just based on a single line, which would make them cyclic masses but not parody masses. I think... I wish I'd studied harder when I was an undergraduate.

[edit] Just found that we do actually have complete editions of Tye's choral works, but the book for which I'll be making a bee-line tomorrow is Peter Le Huray's Music and the Reformation in England, 1549-1660. [/edit]
« Last Edit: 17:57:56, 14-10-2008 by harmonyharmony » Logged

'is this all we can do?'
anonymous student of the University of Berkeley, California quoted in H. Draper, 'The new student revolt' (New York: Grove Press, 1965)
http://www.myspace.com/itensemble
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