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harmonyharmony
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« on: 23:22:06, 16-03-2007 » |
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I was doing some research for a lecture yesterday on Ferneyhough's In Nomine and decided to look at the Tye In Nomine that served as a model for him.
Wow!
I've currently got his complete instrumental works out of the library and I'm poring over them.
Does anyone else know these amazing works?
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'is this all we can do?' anonymous student of the University of Berkeley, California quoted in H. Draper, 'The new student revolt' (New York: Grove Press, 1965) http://www.myspace.com/itensemble |
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #1 on: 23:30:26, 16-03-2007 » |
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What are you pouring over them?
Is it the scores or a recording? Savall and co did a very fine recording. They're wonderful things. Trust (in 5/4) and Crye are particularly pretty. The programme notes in the Savall recording try to make out that Crye is some sort of lament. Which is nonsense I reckon - the repeated-note figure is to me very clearly a street-crier at work. I'm afraid I'm away from my library so I can't say anything very intelligent about them but I'll be back home on Wednesday.
Oh yes, Hold fast is another beauty. I think the name is supposed to derive from the somewhat tricky ensemble skills required. Nowadays I suppose he would have called it Fasten Your Seat Belts.
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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #2 on: 23:37:45, 16-03-2007 » |
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It's a score. The only recording I've found in our library is of 'Howld Fast', 'Farwell my good 1. for ever' and 'Crye' by His Majesty's Sagbutt's and Cornetts.
'Howld Fast' is lots of fun. Utterly weird that it's notated in cut C but clearly in 3.
Do you know 'Sit Fast'? FF suggested that a modern translation might be 'Hold Tight'
Agree re: 'Crye'. They must be used to funny sort of laments...
FF is going to lend me his recording of the full set of In Nomines, which I'm really looking forward to. Very much looking forward to hearing 'Trust'. How many other works in the same period were notated in 5?
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'is this all we can do?' anonymous student of the University of Berkeley, California quoted in H. Draper, 'The new student revolt' (New York: Grove Press, 1965) http://www.myspace.com/itensemble |
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richard barrett
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« Reply #3 on: 23:38:14, 16-03-2007 » |
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That is very beautiful music indeed. There are also a few stunning In nomine pieces among the consort music of William Lawes, and then of course we shouldn't forget Byrd, Tallis, Bull, Gibbons, Purcell and indeed Maxwell Davies... (not early music as such but certainly early Maxwell Davies)
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #4 on: 23:45:09, 16-03-2007 » |
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hh, there's an In Nomine by Bull in 11 in the Fitzwilliam Virginal Book.
I've forgotten if the 'Hold fast' I was thinking of was actually Sit Fast (which despite appearances has nothing to do with the Tube at rush hour) or Hold Fast. Doesn't matter, they're both magical. You can also hear Trust on an old Fretwork compilation - which also has Robert Parsons' famously crunchy In Nomine with simultaneous false relations all over it.
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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #5 on: 23:54:44, 16-03-2007 » |
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Brilliant!
Yet another excuse to investigate Bull!
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'is this all we can do?' anonymous student of the University of Berkeley, California quoted in H. Draper, 'The new student revolt' (New York: Grove Press, 1965) http://www.myspace.com/itensemble |
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SimonSagt!
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« Reply #6 on: 00:00:53, 17-03-2007 » |
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That is very beautiful music indeed. There are also a few stunning In nomine pieces among the consort music of William Lawes, and then of course we shouldn't forget Byrd, Tallis, Bull, Gibbons, Purcell and indeed Maxwell Davies... (not early music as such but certainly early Maxwell Davies)
Byrd, Tallis, Bull, Gibbons, Purcell and ...... Maxwell Davies?  ?? What? Talk about a double-take! |
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The Emperor suspected they were right. But he dared not stop and so on he walked, more proudly than ever. And his courtiers behind him held high the train... that wasn't there at all.
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #7 on: 00:01:45, 17-03-2007 » |
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No one in the world should be without this:  Besides Byrd there's also Bull and Philips. Played on a particularly fine virginal and a very fine harpsichord in delicious mean-tone temperament. You won't be able to hear them in equal temperament again. Maxwell Davies wrote a set of seven In Nomines well before Ensemble Recherche got in on the act. |
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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #8 on: 00:45:16, 17-03-2007 » |
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An idea for a third book of Etudes Tristesses has now crystalised...
In Nomines for viols...
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'is this all we can do?' anonymous student of the University of Berkeley, California quoted in H. Draper, 'The new student revolt' (New York: Grove Press, 1965) http://www.myspace.com/itensemble |
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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #9 on: 00:56:32, 17-03-2007 » |
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How many other works in the same period were notated in 5?
Erm.  I asked FF this last night and he came straight back with the Picforth... How did I fail to remember that? Well I'm going to blame the gin. |
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'is this all we can do?' anonymous student of the University of Berkeley, California quoted in H. Draper, 'The new student revolt' (New York: Grove Press, 1965) http://www.myspace.com/itensemble |
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Kittybriton
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« Reply #10 on: 12:16:44, 17-03-2007 » |
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Hang on a second! Blame the tonic by all means but spare the gin! BTW, The Werner Icking Archive has Tye's O Lux in Adobe PDF and the Choral Public Domain Library might also be worth checking. |
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« Last Edit: 12:25:03, 17-03-2007 by Kittybriton »
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Click me -> About meor me -> my handmade storeNo, I'm not a complete idiot. I'm only a halfwit. In fact I'm actually a catfish. |
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Chafing Dish
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« Reply #11 on: 13:18:09, 15-05-2007 » |
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Hang on a second! Blame the tonic by all means but spare the gin! BTW, The Werner Icking Archive has Tye's O Lux in Adobe PDF and the Choral Public Domain Library might also be worth checking. To return to the head of the thread, I wonder how long Brian Ferneyhough has maintained an interest in Tye: a movement of the guitar concerto from Shadowtime is also based on a Tye song (though probably not audibly). In addition, people are probably aware of his new ensemble piece entitled O lux. I didn't realize that this too was a Tye title. I just figured Brian was enjoying the California sunshine. |
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #12 on: 13:32:41, 15-05-2007 » |
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Howld Fast' is lots of fun. Utterly weird that it's notated in cut C but clearly in 3. I'm speaking out of turn here, as I have not seen the original - but most printed music of that period appeared without either barlines or time-signatures. I wonder if the time-signatures in the edition you're using are editorially added? Ultimately, if you think about it, both of those concepts (barlines + time-sigs) are notational "niceties" which aren't necessary to performance... you just play the correct durations of notes, and the music "comes out" anyhow. It's one of the more interesting aspects of HIP to play from notation that reflects the original - which frees you from the "downbeat imperative" of barlines, which belongs to an entirely different period of music. I've spent longer than I care to imagine explaining the concept of hemiolas to performers, and that they need to combine what appear to be the penultimate two bars of "3/4" into one bar of "3/2"... it's a stylistic nuance of the period, which gives the feel of " un poco ritenuto" without actually touching the tempo. Ooops, the Dowland link to a Lachrymae "in his own hande" without time-sig or barlines didn't work, but you can see it on this page:http://www.soi.city.ac.uk/~timc/ECOLMtest/IMSweb/Fig1.htmlMeantime, here is something from the Fitzwilliam Virginal Book which shows a similar thing - barlines, but no time-signature:  |
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« Last Edit: 13:38:19, 15-05-2007 by Reiner Torheit »
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
- Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
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Kittybriton
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« Reply #13 on: 16:13:20, 15-05-2007 » |
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Adding another two-pennyworth - before our modern notation was rationalized, O time was used to represent perfect time - notes were divided by powers of two. The C+| time was used to represent imperfect time and notes were divided by three. Something I was once castigated by an editor for overlooking  |
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« Last Edit: 16:15:26, 15-05-2007 by Kittybriton »
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Click me -> About meor me -> my handmade storeNo, I'm not a complete idiot. I'm only a halfwit. In fact I'm actually a catfish. |
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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #14 on: 23:33:00, 15-05-2007 » |
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Hang on!
Perfect time is in groups of 3 and imperfect time is in 2.
Opposite of Javanese.
I think that the 'time signatures' were in the form of mensural indications in the original but I'd have to check.
Just checked (facsimile of the manuscript at the front of the edition), and there's a very clear cut C before the music starts.
I'm more than happy to agree that sometimes the prolational/mensural symbols are sometimes quite academic when you sing the material (lots of examples in Agricola and Obrecht that I've sung over the last two years), but surely they add something to how we approach the music as performers, and if a composer has added a symbol indicating how the beat 'works', then surely it's for a reason, particularly when you have a case, as here, of a composer writing in cut C, although the music seems to have a clear grouping in three.
I don't really know what I think about this, I only have questions. I should really get around to talking round these issues with the Dr of Fitch.
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'is this all we can do?' anonymous student of the University of Berkeley, California quoted in H. Draper, 'The new student revolt' (New York: Grove Press, 1965) http://www.myspace.com/itensemble |
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