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Author Topic: An orchestra is like a museum?  (Read 352 times)
Reiner Torheit
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« on: 13:20:27, 06-06-2007 »

Professor Lawrence Kramer challenges some prevailing assumptions in an article in the New York Times

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/03/arts/music/03kram.html?_r=2&ref=arts&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

(NYT pieces only stay visible "for free" for a few days, and then become readable only for registered fee-paying readers - so early reading is recommended.)
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
Ian Pace
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« Reply #1 on: 14:14:11, 06-06-2007 »

Kramer says 'Music does not become “classical” until its performance becomes an event addressed to a general public.' But what constitutes a 'general public'? How large does it need to be (and how broadly drawn from society - and which societies)? A lot of music termed 'classical' is listened to by a very narrow constituency - does that constitute a 'general public'?

Elsewhere he reiterates typical New Musicological doctrine in presenting 19th century music almost exclusively as entertainment, when saying that in that period 'Concerts roused passions and helped create the fan culture of modern life'. In his book Classical Music and Postmodern Knowledge, Kramer goes into more detail about this:

When electrifying performances cause defensive practices to “fail” or their simulated failure to become “real,” audiences respond with a frenzy that both reflects and re-enacts the positions of music as the other. Institutionalized, such frenzy becomes cult-level fandom, the outer limit of which is the kind of superstar craze that begins in the nineteenth century with figures such as Liszt and Gottschalk. With the progress of mass culture, the character of the superstar evolves; figures such as Jenny Lind, Enrico Caruso, and Leopold Stokowski, who straddle high and popular art, are replaced by purely popular figures such as Frank Sinatra, Elvis Presley, and the Beatles. But one need only mention Arturo Toscanini, Maria Callas, Van Cliburn, and Glenn Gould to mark the persistence of the superstar role among “classical” performers. Performer cults can even be understood in Dahlhaus’s terms as the specific other of composer cults, the social vehicle for posing the ex-centric energies of the event against the concentric monumentality of the work. (p. 61)

But Liszt for one was more than a little sceptical about this phenomenon (one reason why he essentially retired from his superstar career in 1847, to take up a position in Weimar). And there are numerous tendencies in nineteenth-century music in opposition to this trend, to be found in the music and thought of Schumann, Chopin, Brahms, and later Debussy, Schoenberg and others. Also, is Kramer not aware of how superstar cults arise around composers as well? As far as superstar cults around performers are concerned, the paragraph here beginning 'The emphasis on the individual performer...' still rings true to an extent. Anyhow, the idea that music might be illuminating and searching as well as simply entertaining is one that both Kramer and others seem to want erase, in their infatuation with the type of total commercialisation of music that is such a feature of their home country.

According to the view presented by Kramer in this article, music from the past should be presented as the exotic curios of bygone eras, rather than as work which retains contemporary significance, despite implications to the contrary. He also presents a caricature of how supposedly one listens to, or is meant to listen to, classical music, when saying:

Despite the changes that performance can bring, our musical perception is supposed to be consistent and disciplined. The concert manners of the performers say so; the demeanor of the audience says so; the program notes say so; the mystique of the great composer says so. We are supposed to hear precisely the same old thing. We are supposed to hold our thoughts still.

How many people hear find that accords with their own experience of listening to music? Hearing 'precisely the same old thing' or 'holding one's thoughts still' to me seem much more like characteristics of mass entertainment.

He says 'Movies last longer than string quartets'. Yes, but many operas last longer than the average movie (and movie producers put great pressure upon directors not to exceed what is seen as a comfortable length). The visual arts do not necessarily need any great investment of time from the spectator in order to be popular, so cannot really be compared with music in this respect in the way that Kramer does. One can skim through a gallery or exhibition in a way that is impossible with a classical concert; movies may have a greater length than some concerts, but only if they are predicated upon fast-moving action and drama do they achieve a high commercial success.

When he says 'It might even be nice to have a gift shop in which to linger after the concert', has he really been to many concert halls? Not seen Mozart mugs, Mozart chocolates, Mozart T-shirts, and so on (as well as books and CDs on sale in shops in concert halls as well)?

Kramer says 'In the right circumstances even a work as overfamiliar as Beethoven’s Fifth Symphony can become a relentless assault on complacency'. Absolutely, but the demands that music aspire to the condition of entertainment is one of the most palpable forms of complacency. Gardiner or Harnoncourt's Beethoven Fifth to me present, if not a full-frontal 'assault' upon complacent, passive, merely diverting forms of listening experience, then certainly an alternative to them, but I suspect this is not what Kramer has in mind.He then says 'But for classical music to be taken to heart in an era when its expressive vocabulary is no longer seamlessly integrated with the rhythms and routines of everyday life, the concert must become a virtual museum'. That is a false dichotomy and indicative of the paucity of thinking he brings to bear upon the matter. There are many other alternatives for music than those available to the type of high-capitalist-suffused-consciousness he exhibits.
« Last Edit: 14:18:41, 06-06-2007 by Ian Pace » Logged

'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
TimR-J
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« Reply #2 on: 14:32:15, 06-06-2007 »

He says 'Movies last longer than string quartets'. Yes, but many operas last longer than the average movie (and movie producers put great pressure upon directors not to exceed what is seen as a comfortable length).

I thought Kramer's point about attention spans was one of his better ones. Producers may be asking for directors to cut their films to comfortable lengths (I have no evidence either way), but that 'comfortable length' has grown by something like 30-60 minutes in the last couple of decades. It's not uncommon for even the trashiest, most commercial blockbuster to clock in at three hours. (Personally I'd like to see more pressure from producers: good films I find these days tend to be the ones where a stricter editorial hand has been applied, the same goes for novels, where editorial control works in inverse proportion to sales of the author's last book.) It's also common practice now in (good) US TV, and slowly becoming so in the UK too, for story arcs to be drawn over 22 episodes, or six months' worth of broadcasts.

Things may simply have become more bloated, but I don't see conclusive evidence - based on the simple measure of elapsed time, at least - that attention spans are getting shorter.
« Last Edit: 14:34:58, 06-06-2007 by TimR-J » Logged
perfect wagnerite
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« Reply #3 on: 14:49:31, 06-06-2007 »

[ He also presents a caricature of how supposedly one listens to, or is meant to listen to, classical music, when saying:

Despite the changes that performance can bring, our musical perception is supposed to be consistent and disciplined. The concert manners of the performers say so; the demeanor of the audience says so; the program notes say so; the mystique of the great composer says so. We are supposed to hear precisely the same old thing. We are supposed to hold our thoughts still.

How many people hear find that accords with their own experience of listening to music? Hearing 'precisely the same old thing' or 'holding one's thoughts still' to me seem much more like characteristics of mass entertainment.
[/quote]

Spot on, Ian.

I think this is a fundamental failure in Kramer's argument.  My own experience is that over decades of listening to music, my own relationship to individual composers and works has changed and continues to change; and that part of this reflects performance practice (to give an example, I recently listened to Barenboim's early 1970's performance of the Bach Magnificat for the first time in years; what struck me forcibly was how archaic the performance sounded, with its large choir and full string section, in a way that simply would not have been the case when I first heard the recording two decades or more ago).  But the point is more general; appreciating music, it seems to me, is precisely that one does not hear the same old thing each time.
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At every one of these [classical] concerts in England you will find rows of weary people who are there, not because they really like classical music, but because they think they ought to like it. (Shaw, Don Juan in Hell)
Ian Pace
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« Reply #4 on: 14:51:44, 06-06-2007 »

I thought Kramer's point about attention spans was one of his better ones. Producers may be asking for directors to cut their films to comfortable lengths (I have no evidence either way), but that 'comfortable length' has grown by something like 30-60 minutes in the last couple of decades. It's not uncommon for even the trashiest, most commercial blockbuster to clock in at three hours.

Well, what percentage of blockbusters do so? You get the odd 'epic', yes, but that's very much the exception rather than the rule.

Quote
(Personally I'd like to see more pressure from producers: good films I find these days tend to be the ones where a stricter editorial hand has been applied, the same goes for novels, where editorial control works in inverse proportion to sales of the author's last book.)

Would you really prefer it if artistic decisions were made even more on the basis of what will 'sell' to the mass market best, usually entailing overriding of any complexities of characterisation, of any sort of cinematographic moments that are not absolutely essential to a plot, or anything else that isn't primarily predicated upon producing mass entertainment? I certainly wouldn't. Perhaps we should have publishers editing compositions to take out all except the most action-packed or instantaneously appealing moments as well?

Quote
It's also common practice now in (good) US TV, and slowly becoming so in the UK too, for story arcs to be drawn over 22 episodes, or six months' worth of broadcasts.

Well, series are becoming more like soap operas, yes (usually these things consist of a set of roughly connected narrative episodes; even in series like 24 it doesn't matter much if one misses a few episodes), but is that necessarily progress?

Quote
Things may simply have become more bloated, but I don't see conclusive evidence - based on the simple measure of elapsed time, at least - that attention spans are getting shorter.

I'm not necessarily saying that, but I'm not convinced they've become longer either. More time is perhaps spent chilling out at the TV than before, but I wouldn't derive from that an increase in attention spans.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
TimR-J
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« Reply #5 on: 15:23:19, 06-06-2007 »

I thought Kramer's point about attention spans was one of his better ones. Producers may be asking for directors to cut their films to comfortable lengths (I have no evidence either way), but that 'comfortable length' has grown by something like 30-60 minutes in the last couple of decades. It's not uncommon for even the trashiest, most commercial blockbuster to clock in at three hours.

Well, what percentage of blockbusters do so? You get the odd 'epic', yes, but that's very much the exception rather than the rule.

I'm not sure it is; epics (Lord of the Rings, say) can edge up to four hours. I'm pretty confident (based on personal experience) that the mean time for a Hollywood film is at least 30 minutes more than it used to be in the 80s.

Quote
(Personally I'd like to see more pressure from producers: good films I find these days tend to be the ones where a stricter editorial hand has been applied, the same goes for novels, where editorial control works in inverse proportion to sales of the author's last book.)
Would you really prefer it if artistic decisions were made even more on the basis of what will 'sell' to the mass market best, usually entailing overriding of any complexities of characterisation, of any sort of cinematographic moments that are not absolutely essential to a plot, or anything else that isn't primarily predicated upon producing mass entertainment? I certainly wouldn't. Perhaps we should have publishers editing compositions to take out all except the most action-packed or instantaneously appealing moments as well?

No, but I'd prefer it if editors are to be paid (and here the comparison I'm making between compositions and films/books breaks down because there isn't really the equivalent figure in music), they felt free to confront an author/director and say such things as 'this has got self-indulgent, cut some of it'. At the moment although such a steadying hand exists within the industry, it's becoming increasingly superfluous. From the way I see it, successful authors and filmmakers are indulged too much by industries that are scared to rock the boat and question anything they might produce. However, as I say this point has less to music since the mediating figure of an editor/producer is much less part of the process.

Quote
It's also common practice now in (good) US TV, and slowly becoming so in the UK too, for story arcs to be drawn over 22 episodes, or six months' worth of broadcasts.

Well, series are becoming more like soap operas, yes (usually these things consist of a set of roughly connected narrative episodes; even in series like 24 it doesn't matter much if one misses a few episodes), but is that necessarily progress?

I think stories that are allowed to develop over time and become more complex - thus demanding more from their audiences - is progress of a sort, yes. Certainly there are episodic subsections (that's simply part of the medium), but as DVD boxset sales come to account for more of the revenue, writers appear to be happier working across those imposed divisions as much as possible. (Something like The Wire would be the best example here.)

I'm straying off the musical question somewhat here, though, so I'll take a back seat for a moment while I thnk about that...
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pim_derks
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« Reply #6 on: 15:38:23, 06-06-2007 »

I don't believe my eyes! I'm really surprised about the tone of this article. We had this discussion in the Netherlands more than thirty years ago. Louis Andriessen stopped composing for symphony orchestra because he didn't want to compose for a museum. Frans Brüggen never made a secret of the fact that he sees the Orchestra of the 18th Century as a museum.

Extraordinary. Undecided
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #7 on: 15:41:58, 06-06-2007 »

No, but I'd prefer it if editors are to be paid (and here the comparison I'm making between compositions and films/books breaks down because there isn't really the equivalent figure in music), they felt free to confront an author/director and say such things as 'this has got self-indulgent, cut some of it'.

I wonder how Proust or Joyce would have fared under such editors? Or Tarkovsky or Godard or Rivette?

Quote
At the moment although such a steadying hand exists within the industry, it's becoming increasingly superfluous.

I wouldn't call it a 'steadying hand' so much as a commercially-driven hand.

Quote
From the way I see it, successful authors and filmmakers are indulged too much by industries that are scared to rock the boat and question anything they might produce.

I'm really quite amazed you say that; if anything, the reverse seems to me to be true, with the demands for instant popularity more all-pervasive than ever.

Quote
Quote
It's also common practice now in (good) US TV, and slowly becoming so in the UK too, for story arcs to be drawn over 22 episodes, or six months' worth of broadcasts.

Well, series are becoming more like soap operas, yes (usually these things consist of a set of roughly connected narrative episodes; even in series like 24 it doesn't matter much if one misses a few episodes), but is that necessarily progress?

I think stories that are allowed to develop over time and become more complex - thus demanding more from their audiences - is progress of a sort, yes. Certainly there are episodic subsections (that's simply part of the medium), but as DVD boxset sales come to account for more of the revenue, writers appear to be happier working across those imposed divisions as much as possible. (Something like The Wire would be the best example here.)

But do you really think these stories are all that 'complex', though? I haven't seen The Wire, but I've watched things like 24, The Sopranos, Desperate Housewives and so on, and I'm not at all convinced they are. Not compared to older British series such as Boys from the Blackstuff or Edge of Darkness.
« Last Edit: 15:58:00, 06-06-2007 by Ian Pace » Logged

'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
TimR-J
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« Reply #8 on: 15:54:07, 06-06-2007 »

At the moment although such a steadying hand exists within the industry, it's becoming increasingly superfluous.

I wouldn't call it a 'steadying hand' so much as a commercially-driven hand.

Quote
From the way I see it, successful authors and filmmakers are indulged too much by industries that are scared to rock the boat and question anything they might produce.

I'm really quite amazed you say that; if anything, the reverse seems to me to be true, with the demands for instant popularity more all-pervasive than ever.

On my shelves I have sets of books by various popular authors - from J.K. Rowling to Christopher Brookmyre - and the correlation between order of publication and number of pages is very striking. It's a commercially driven hand, certainly, but commerce is asking for hands off rather than hands on approaches. (To the detriment, I think, of several of those books.)

Thinking about it, that may have something to do with the instant popularity you mention, though - a fast turnover mitigating against thoughtful editing.
« Last Edit: 15:55:58, 06-06-2007 by TimR-J » Logged
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