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The Radio 3 Boards > The Radio 3 Boards > General Radio 3 Discussion > Out of tune or is it just me?
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Author Topic: Out of tune or is it just me?  (Read 579 times)
MabelJane
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When in doubt, wash.
« on: 22:21:00, 26-01-2008 »
Unable to sleep last night I was listening to Through the Night. I recognised and like the Schubert sonata played but I cringed on the 6th note of the melody - surely that wasn't right? Each time it was repeated, it sounded wrong to me. I'm LA now, and again that chord is jarring unpleasantly - I don't understand why. Can anyone offer an explanation? I think there's a major 7th (passing note?) but it should sound crunchingly pleasant - I always enjoy the delightful clash of a false relation. Is it just my ears? Roll Eyes

2.38am
Schubert, Franz (1797-1828): Piano Sonata in B flat, D 960
Naum Grubert (piano)
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Andy D
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« Reply #1 on: 22:46:13, 26-01-2008 »
Here's the score MJ:

http://www.schubertsocietyusa.org/sbp015.pdf

Is that what you heard?

It's one of my favourite Schubert works. I did have the radio on early this morning when it was on Radio 3 but didn't notice the problem you speak of. But then I've got a terrible ear for that sort of thing.
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MabelJane
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« Reply #2 on: 23:20:57, 26-01-2008 »
Thanks Andy - yes that's it, the E natural clashing with the F above but I still don't understand why it sounds horrible to me when I usually enjoy a harmonic crunch. Must be because there's the D at the top too. I should have called this thread  Painful or is it just me?as the piano can't be out of tune!  Embarrassed
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MabelJane
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« Reply #3 on: 23:23:40, 26-01-2008 »
Quote from: Andy D on 22:46:13, 26-01-2008
But then I've got a terrible ear for that sort of thing.
No, more likely you enjoy far crunchier clashes than I ever would as you listen to that weird modern stuff featuring quartertones etc! Cheesy
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C Dish
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« Reply #4 on: 01:47:05, 27-01-2008 »
The pianist is the one who makes the crunch -- that e-natural can be emphasised with great ferocity or it can be daintily pummeled, or something in between. It depends not on how much they want you to suffer, but how important they feel this chromatic appoggiatura idea to be.
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inert fig here
Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #5 on: 10:10:25, 27-01-2008 »
With all due deference to Bach's well-tempering, any piano-tuning system or method is inevitably a compromise (there are lots of explanations as to why,  if you want to Google for them)...  essentially the tuner has to "lose" more than a semitone between the top and bottom notes, and "spread the muck around" a bit so it won't be noticed too seriously.

The note "e" is one of the ones most traditionally "manipulated".  Find a freshly-tuned piano and play an e-major triad. Sounds "bright", because the g# is higher than it should be (mathematically) - but it's because "e" is actually too low, and as a result the major third is wide.  Now move up a semitone, and play an f-major triad.  Sounds dark - the major third in this chord is one of the lowest-acceptable compromises on the modern keyboard.

So it could be that the piano was tuned to favour other keys, and the E/F combination was more out-of-whack than we're used to accepting?
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C Dish
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« Reply #6 on: 15:06:33, 27-01-2008 »
That is very sensible. But instead of 'more than a semitone' I think you meant 'a significant fraction of a semitone.'

But the gist of your observation may be what helps MJ getuthebottomothings
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MabelJane
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When in doubt, wash.
« Reply #7 on: 20:29:01, 27-01-2008 »
Thanks C Dish and Reiner, both helpful observations.

There's a passage in the Eroica's last movement in which the violins always sound flat to me - I know they can't be as it's the same in every recording I've heard. I've just found the orchestral score online (isn't the internet brilliant!) but can't find the exact bars I'm looking for - I can hear the ascending chords in my head (pah pah paaaah, pah pah paaaah...) but can't spend any longer wading through it now.

By the way, James Galway's flute always sound fractionally sharp to me - anyone else find this?
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ariosto
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« Reply #8 on: 17:02:59, 28-04-2008 »
By the way, James Galway's flute always sound fractionally sharp to me - anyone else find this?
MabelJane
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That's because he had such a wide vibrato.
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Ariosto
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