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Author Topic: What's a "musical snob"?  (Read 5048 times)
Ian Pace
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« Reply #150 on: 14:03:54, 02-07-2008 »

Examining the immanent aspects of a piece of music can tell us about the structural, architectural, etc properties of that work, but that still leaves the massive issue of why and how listeners from various cultural contexts respond to it. The two issues are certainly related, but neither one can be seperated from the other. Formalist analysis tends to concentrate primarily on the former, but write issues of musical meaning (not the same thing as either semiotics of semantics, in my book) out of the equation. And, indeed, the listener.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
richard barrett
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« Reply #151 on: 14:06:16, 02-07-2008 »

I wonder whether the divisions, and mutual exclusiveness, within the pop world really count as 'snobbery'. There doesn't appear to be the affected or hypocritical admiration of something that snobbery seems to imply. The admiration is genuine and unaffected enough.

You reckon? Surely a lot of the time the music, er, itself is almost an afterthought relative to what a particular taste in music "says" about the person.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #152 on: 14:08:43, 02-07-2008 »

I wonder whether the divisions, and mutual exclusiveness, within the pop world really count as 'snobbery'. There doesn't appear to be the affected or hypocritical admiration of something that snobbery seems to imply. The admiration is genuine and unaffected enough. Isn't it more (thinking back to the young Garnett in the sixties and early seventies here) a form of musical tribalism, my team is better than yours - that sort of thing? (Or is that <gulp> itself a snobbish thought.)  
This opens a bigger can of worms, to do with subcultural identity (which is equally a factor for classical music) - maybe needs a new thread?
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Ian Pace
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« Reply #153 on: 14:11:54, 02-07-2008 »

I wonder whether the divisions, and mutual exclusiveness, within the pop world really count as 'snobbery'. There doesn't appear to be the affected or hypocritical admiration of something that snobbery seems to imply. The admiration is genuine and unaffected enough.

You reckon? Surely a lot of the time the music, er, itself is almost an afterthought relative to what a particular taste in music "says" about the person.
Equally true of tribal followings for various types of classical/contemporary music.

But there's another factor to consider, which can potentially affect all types of musical tastes - that these processes may not necessarily be conscious: one might intuitively 'like' something, but the reasons for that response have to do with the music's resonating with aspects of that individual's identity (for example, feeling 'hard' and disdaining anything that seems too intimate), without their necessarily being aware of this process. Simple issues of being drawn primarily towards music which seems familiar surely fall into this category.

Actually, I personally doubt whether anyone's tastes, however seemingly spontaneous or sincere, are unaffected by such things.
« Last Edit: 14:29:32, 02-07-2008 by Ian Pace » Logged

'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
burning dog
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« Reply #154 on: 14:32:47, 02-07-2008 »

I wonder whether the divisions, and mutual exclusiveness, within the pop world really count as 'snobbery'. There doesn't appear to be the affected or hypocritical admiration of something that snobbery seems to imply. The admiration is genuine and unaffected enough. Isn't it more (thinking back to the young Garnett in the sixties and early seventies here) a form of musical tribalism, my team is better than yours - that sort of thing? (Or is that <gulp> itself a snobbish thought.)  

Nothing snobbish  about thinking that GG. Its only snobbish if you think only some people are prone to it. There's definitely a lot of tribalism invovled IMO, it's easy to see class and race sub texts, but they don't always stand up,  "little bruv" often prefered punk to prog just because he was "little bruv" its about conforming in one sense but also being different (from a group higher up the hierachy perhaps). The stuff Ian has just written is true also I  think  -just seen it.
« Last Edit: 14:37:05, 02-07-2008 by burning dog » Logged
Ian Pace
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« Reply #155 on: 14:38:15, 02-07-2008 »

Further thought: on this very thread, blanket dismissals of vast amounts of pop music either pass without comment or are treated courteously; blanket dismissals of contemporary classical music (or even just of some single works) generate ferocious reactions and sometimes require moderation. Despite the claims being made that listeners to pop music are supposedly even more snobbish than classical listeners, do we perhaps turn a blind eye to other types of snobbery when they accord with a certain group ideology?
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
IgnorantRockFan
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« Reply #156 on: 14:38:28, 02-07-2008 »

Oh, yes.  I didn't mean to suggest the disdain was consistent or even defensible - in fact it did amount to what could be called snobbishness at times.  On the prog side Pink Floyd, The Nice & Jethro Tull had singles, to name but a few.  And several of the 'heavy rock' giants - whose fans often showed the same disdain - did, too; with bands like Deep Purple clearly having no objection to 'commercial' success. 

There seems to be this contradictory motivation among many pop musicians (which rubs off on their fans): to achieve the maximum "success" (ie. commercial success) with audiences, while not themselves being "commercial" (like that awful group _____________ - fill in as necessary - who can therefore be sneered at as sellouts even though their music may be very little different). When I used to read papers like the NME in the 70s and early 80s they'd be full of this kind of thing.

I believe that every musician/composer/songwriter wants his music to be heard by as many people as possible -- indeed, I would suspect one who claimed otherwise as either lying or having a fragile grasp on sanity. Surely nobody will create something which they want people to hear, while simultaneously hoping that very few people will listen to it?

And by definition, if you create something (to sell) that a lot of people listen to, you are a commercial success.

But "selling out", in terms of pop music, specifically referrs to compromising your artistic vision with the sole intent of commercial success.

If Richard Barrett writes a three-minute piece of music in his acustomed style, Ian Pace records it, and by some miracle (I mean that in the nicest possible way Wink ) it sells millions and becomes a top 10 single, have either of them "sold out" artistically? No.

But if Richard Barrett sits at his desk one day and says, "I'm going to write the most radio-friendly music I can in order to get a top 10 single," gets the Arctic Monkeys to record it, and makes a fortune, he's pretty solidly "sold-out".

So Pink Floyd, The Nice, Deep Purple, all had hit singles, but they had them by writing the kind of music they wanted to write (and have always written) and then hoping it would appeal to a lot of people. In a few cases it did. Their fans generally respect them for it.

There's a quote from Deep Purple's Roger Glover, which I can't find so I'll paraphrase: "We have never been in fashion or or out of fashion. It just so happens that there have been times in our history when what we do has been the fashion at the time."


(Aside: while googling for the quote, I found this instead, which I quite like: 'I have never been in fashion, so I can never be out of fashion. This is not a witticism, it is a stoic truth' - Malcolm Arnold.)


There have been times when rock bands have "compromised" themselves in pursuit of commercial success, radically changing their usual style in order to produce a hit single. These hits, though they may sell millions, are often derided by those who call themselves fans of the band (and have taken it upon themselves to decide what does and doesn't fall within the band's "usual style"). This, if you like, is blatant snobbery: "I will follow you as long as you meet the high  ideals I have ascribed to you. If there is a hint that people with lesser musical appreciation than me also like you, I will deny you."

Also, the "real fans" will see the "new fans" who have only bought the hit single as an inferior class of fan. Unbelieveable snobbery: "My appreciation of this band is greater than your appreciation of this band, as I listen to their less-popular music while you, like sheep, only listen to what is in the charts."

Dare I say that this latter attitude can also be seen from some classical music fans, directed towards people who only listen to the "popular bits" of a symphony?


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Ian Pace
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« Reply #157 on: 14:47:13, 02-07-2008 »

That puts it very well, I think, IRF. The problem with the use of 'commercial' as a negative epithet is what you describe - some music is not engineered primarily with an eye for sales (though it's by no means so easy to ascertain the degree to which this is the case, and there's plenty of evidence of various 'great' composers thinking very much in market terms), but might still be a success, and vice versa (for every successful 'commercial' band, there are many others, just as mercenary, who fall by the wayside). So the 'commercial' may not be commercial, and the un-'commercial' may be commercial! Second-guessing potential patterns of consumption isn't easy to do. 

However, there are factors determining what will sell that go over and above what audiences might want to listen to. The three minute format works very well for radio, thus giving plenty exposure to the singles; even if listeners might want to listen to longer tracks, they'd be less likely to encounter them for this reason.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
richard barrett
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« Reply #158 on: 14:50:14, 02-07-2008 »

if Richard Barrett sits at his desk one day and says, "I'm going to write the most radio-friendly music I can in order to get a top 10 single," gets the Arctic Monkeys to record it, and makes a fortune

Unfortunately I get a bit stuck in the transition from phases one to two there... but I think it's possible to separate the "selling out" from the musical result to the extent that we oughtn't to look down our noses at something just because (we suspect) it has been made from purely commercial motives. Schubert was trying all his short life to "break through" to a wider public, and to improve his material circumstances, by writing symphonies (many of which weren't performed in his lifetime) and operas (most of which he didn't get very far with) and by trying his utmost to get publishers interested in his work.

I don't know that everyone who's making music wants it to be heard by as many people as possible. Musicians do what they do for all kinds of reasons. Composers like Scelsi and Sorabji clearly didn't think that way. That doesn't make their music any more or less interesting though.
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burning dog
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« Reply #159 on: 15:09:04, 02-07-2008 »


But if Richard Barrett sits at his desk one day and says, "I'm going to write the most radio-friendly music I can in order to get a top 10 single," gets the Arctic Monkeys to record it, and makes a fortune, he's pretty solidly "sold-out".


I'd like to hear such a song, not sure about the Arctic Monkeys though. How about Beyonce?
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richard barrett
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« Reply #160 on: 15:13:14, 02-07-2008 »

How about Beyonce?

She never answers my calls. Snobbish or what?
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burning dog
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« Reply #161 on: 15:18:09, 02-07-2008 »

How about Beyonce?

She never answers my calls. Snobbish or what?

 Grin
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IgnorantRockFan
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« Reply #162 on: 15:20:57, 02-07-2008 »

I'd like to hear such a song, not sure about the Arctic Monkeys though. How about Beyonce?

Why? Such a song would sound like every other Beyonce song. That's the whole point...

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martle
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« Reply #163 on: 15:45:40, 02-07-2008 »

There have been times when rock bands have "compromised" themselves in pursuit of commercial success, radically changing their usual style in order to produce a hit single.

A classic example of this is Bob Dylan's 'going electric' in 1964, provoking outrage amongst his folkie fans who believed he'd done so in order to 'sell out' in the crudest way possible: not only by appealing to the electric-savvy pop audience of that time but, by definition, by thus abandoning the established 'natural', acoustic and simple performance practices of the folk movement and thereby betraying the American working man in the process. That seems a little more than mere 'snobbery' - something closer to outrage in the face of cultural treachery.
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burning dog
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« Reply #164 on: 16:17:52, 02-07-2008 »

I'd like to hear such a song, not sure about the Arctic Monkeys though. How about Beyonce?

Why? Such a song would sound like every other Beyonce song. That's the whole point...



all rock sounds after 1969 sounds the same to me except a bit of punk
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