Thanks for the welcome!

I've seen 2 of his books which document the kind of conversations he's had with people, challenging the belligerent anti-social posturing of the hip hop brigade and similar. I doubt if those people liked his "help", but help is what it was.

The other one shows his workshops with young people, many of whom I suspect are very encouraged and inspired by his help.

Your question suggests to me you think WM doesn't help anyone, and you are challenging me to "prove" it? Am I wrong? If I'm right - sorry but that's not an argument I will have with you, on the internet, in this context. I suspect if either you or I researched the activities of WM and the Lincoln Centre, it would be easy to establish that he has indeed helped a lot of people. But like I say, I'm not really interested in a game of "prove it" - the facts are out there for anyone to establish and from what I've seen, I think they are consistent with what I've said.

If I'm wrong and you're just cordially inviting me to give examples, well again its not really something I want to pursue because I know some people don't like WM and will just jump all over whatever I say which is not something I wish to engage with 

greenfox, lighten up! You don't need to be so defensive here - people are genuine enthusiasts on this forum, and they tend to ask direct questions. I'm sure t_i_n's question emanated from curiosity. Read around the threads and you'll see what I mean. We get the odd spat, but not so often, really. 

I suspect John W's remark was directed at me, foxy. Certainly not at you.

As for my own earlier post, it wasn't meant nastily, although it was indeed using rhetoric in order to voice a gentle scepticism. Your subsequent response does nothing to alleviate that scepticism ('I doubt if those people liked his "help", but help is what it was': well, George Dubya could say that about Iraq, I suppose - it doesn't prove anything either way). And asking for your 'simple innocuous point' to be 'allowed some integrity' is also a form of rhetoric. But you know that, I'm sure. I'm half-teasing, and I wouldn't be doing it at all if I didn't think you could fight your corner perfectly ably.

Well there you go - I was right, it was a "prove it" game. Firstly, I know how that game works. Secondly, I know how it doesn't address a complex subject such as this is why I won't pursue it. Thirdly, I don't like that nonsense; it just wastes my time pursuing a refracted topic that's lost coherence and direction.

I maintain two points. Firstly, that while many people decry the current state of jazz they condemn WM at the same time while failing to acknowledge that he does, in part, agree with them - even champion their viewpoint. It seems to be largely problematic, for such people, mainly when WM rejects free jazz and similar. Then the topic gets spliced onto the discourse of so called politics and its binary camps, and ding! ding! the combatants start fighting. Zzzzz....

Secondly, if anyone wishes to ascertain how and to what extent WM has helped people, you need to research his lectures and workshops yourself, mainly with young people. Have some integrity: that's how the subject is addressed, in a similar way if you want to learn Maths you need to get a few books from the library and study it. From what I've seen of his programmes, they're very encouraging and inspiring for young folk and a constructive exercise compared to the anti social belligerence offered by the hip-hop brigade and their kind.

I'm not interested in a battle of scepticism here or anywhere else but will say I agree with WM that the subculture of the latter is really rather nasty: women are bitches and w*****, men wear jeans round their hips because that's what happens in prison when belts are removed, drugs are presumably used like coffee, guns are never far away, and its all wrapped up in a posturing gangster sneer. If one thinks the repudiation of such people is legitimate, when WM or anyone else challenges them (and he does), my view is I disagree.

Hi again greenfox

That's fine - I have no problem with that. But if I was about to start decrying the current state of jazz (which is not actually a situation I feel the need to pass judgement on, but I can understand why those professionally involved in the field might reasonably want to do so), I think I'd be reluctant to confine myself to naming one name as some sort of 'solution', or as the only honourable exception to a general declining trend. I don't say everything Wynton Marsalis does is bad, but I think there's a danger of implying (as he sometimes seems to do himself) that there are not other correct paths.

To frame his position as an opposition to violence, juvenile aimlessness-cum-delinquency, gang lifestyles, etc. seems on the one hand to be making a very large claim (Marsalis may have done an immense amount of work in this field, but, as is the way of such things, his contribution will be a drop in the ocean compared to the efforts of charities, youth workers, sociologists and political activists around the globe) and on the other hand to be saying not very much at all (since it's hardly as if every musician who is not Wynton Marsalis is complicit with the nastier sides of certain subcultures you mention).

I know what you mean about the way politics can turn into 'binary camps', but I wasn't trying to diss him in favour of anyone else, just to imply that certain other approaches are more than a little bit left out of consideration by WM's preferred 'jazz canon'. Don't you see how it might look as if you're the one turning it into a binary argument, by seeming to imply that anyone who's not with Marsalis is automatically lined up on the devil's side along with the misogynist, drug-abusing, gun-toting antisocials you keep alluding to?

... which is exactly why I asked you for some concrete examples! I've admitted I was sceptical, but I wasn't trying to trip you up, I would love to be able to believe what you say but I feel the need for evidence of a sort you've so far been unwilling to provide. And yes, of course, that doesn't prove you wrong, but I was just being suitably sceptical (in line with the sort of evidence-based scientific/sociological approach you suggest is appropriate). I certainly wouldn't say you were definitively wrong until I'd been able to investigate the situation more for myself. I don't see why it's inappropriate for me to invite you to give some supporting examples for your statements.

I don't seek to defend the sort of behaviour and attitudes you describe, but I do wish you could be more specific about who you feel is guilty of these things. That's not because I want to see you accusing people, it's because I think it would be helpful to see that not everyone in hip-hop (or whatever other subculture you might name) is equally guilty. At the moment, you seem to be implying that anyone who disagrees with Marsalis must be a supporter of the antisocial behaviour he's spoken out against, which I find to be a very odd way of looking at things.

Yes that's an OK discussion Calum, and probably does encapsulate some of the repeating themes and attitudes at the R3 bored. Though my view is not, as I've stated here, that such matters are polarised into either A or B; nor do I find it very interesting or even apposite to splice the formulaic discourses of politics onto this subject.

I heard a track from WM's CD Plantation to Penitentiary last week on JLU, and thought it was terrific. I don't know if it was his work or someone else's. I've also heard some tribute stuff from him, I found rather bland and uninspiring.

I have no problem both accepting and containing these opposites, within something else - my own ideas, viewpoint, and interests.

Context, m'boy, context.
I don't enjoy 'heated' exhange, especially when it has nothing to do with what I've said and is about as useful as white noise.
It's you who came in here with accusations, demands for 'proof' and divergent stuff which I've already countered, and shan't pursue any more since all I'm now doing is explaining what is obvious anyway. My last words: I also said I also find WM bland and boring. And I said if you want to discover the good work WM has done, that's for you to research and not for me to 'prove'. You keep putting me into all kinds of boxes and I keep saying 'no', and repeating myself.