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Author Topic: When is a realistic novel or work in another art form, realistic?  (Read 369 times)
Don Basilio
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« on: 14:13:13, 17-03-2008 »

This was brought up on the Poetry appreciation thread, but maybe there are interesting thing to say which would  be better elsewhere.

Pim doesn't like realistic novels.  Fair enough.  Any comments?
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richard barrett
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« Reply #1 on: 14:24:02, 17-03-2008 »

Here is the introduction to B S Johnson's Aren't you rather young to be writing your memoirs? (1973), which grapples with the idea of truth and realism, particularly in lines like this:
Quote from:  B S Johnson
I am not interested in telling lies in my own novels. A useful distinction between literature and other writing for me is that the former teaches one something true about life: and how can you convey truth in a vehicle of fiction? The two terms, truth and fiction, are opposites, and it must logically be impossible.

The two terms novel and fiction are not, incidentally, synonymous, as many seem to suppose in the way they use them interchangeably. The publisher of Trawl wished to classify it as autobiography, not as a novel. It is a novel, I insisted and could prove; what it is not is fiction. The novel is a form in the same sense that the sonnet is a form; within that form, one may write truth or fiction. I choose to write truth in the form of a novel.

In any case, surely it must be a confession of failure on the part of any novelist to rely on that primitive, vulgar and idle curiosity of the reader to know "what happens next" (however banal or hackneyed it may be) to hold his interest? Can he not face the fact that it is his choice of words, his style. which ought to keep the reader reading? Have such novelists no pride? The drunk who tells you the story of his troubles in a pub relies on the same curiosity.

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time_is_now
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« Reply #2 on: 14:39:14, 17-03-2008 »

And here are some comments from the literary critic Michael Wood, attuned as ever to the subtleties of what we sometimes imagine are straightforward categories:
Quote from: Michael Wood
Baudelaire pretended to be surprised that anyone could think of Balzac as a realist. It had always seemed to him, he said, that the novelist was ‘a passionate visionary’. The only perverse element in this claim is the suggestion that Balzac was not a realist as well as a visionary, and more broadly, that realism is not a vision.

I'll return with some thoughts of my own later. Another concept we might like to introduce into the discussion is 'naturalism'.
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pim_derks
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« Reply #3 on: 22:27:29, 17-03-2008 »

Many thanks for opening this discussion, Don Basilio. I'll contribute to it later.

In the meantime, here's a recent article about novel reading:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2008/03/15/do1505.xml

Roll Eyes
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« Reply #4 on: 03:38:05, 18-03-2008 »

Slightly OT, perhaps, but I've always been drawn to J.K. Huysman's rant about Naturalism on the very first page of La Bas:

Quote from: Huysmans
“What sort of disreputable mind could have come up with such a philosophy, such a mean and threadbare set of ideas? To willingly confine oneself to the wash-houses of the flesh, to reject the suprasensible, to deny the ideal, not even to realise that the mystery of art begins right there, where the senses cease to be of any use.”

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Don Basilio
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« Reply #5 on: 10:00:56, 18-03-2008 »

Many thanks for opening this discussion, Don Basilio. I'll contribute to it later.

In the meantime, here's a recent article about novel reading:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2008/03/15/do1505.xml

Roll Eyes

Don't mention it, pim.  Gosh isn't that Philippa Hensher a show-off.
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pim_derks
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« Reply #6 on: 16:29:23, 18-03-2008 »

Gosh isn't that Philippa Hensher a show-off.

Yes, indeed! We have a similar character here in the Netherlands. He's called Maarten 't Hart and he was born in Maassluis, where I live now. His novels are a big hit in this country and also in Germany.

He's also a transvestite and a supporter of the Dutch Party for the Animals (two seats in parliament).

And oh yes, he's also bald:



This is Maartje 't Hart, his alter ego:



Mr 't Hart claims he reads seven (!) books a week...
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #7 on: 18:37:05, 18-03-2008 »

Actually I should be ashamed of myself lapsing into 1950s style queen speak.  The fact that he is an out gay is the most admirable thing about young P Hensher.  But, golly, isn't he a pretentious show-off.  Read five novels every week from the age of five, and reading Proust in Italian translation.  Frankly, I don't believe him
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martle
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« Reply #8 on: 18:47:01, 18-03-2008 »

Frankly, I don't believe him

I do. You have to work hard at that kind of pretentiousness, and I don't doubt his capacity for work.
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #9 on: 21:32:11, 13-08-2008 »

I'm still confused as to the difference between realism and naturalism.

Any more takers here?

Realism, however defined, is a difference between novels and poetry, surely?  Are The Iliad, La Divina Commedia or Paradise Lost realistic in comparison to Madame Bovary, Robinson Crusoe or War and Peace?  Presumably not, but Bleak House, The Ambassadors or The Idiot are not tele-realism by any means.

So is any fiction realistic at all?
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
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pim_derks
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« Reply #10 on: 22:03:53, 13-08-2008 »

Realism tries to describe life as it really is.

Naturalism also tries to describe the causes (political, economical, technnical, medical, etc.) influencing life.
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #11 on: 22:12:00, 13-08-2008 »

In its own time, the Iliad might well have been looked on as supremely realistic: so far as we know there was little else to compare it with, apart from the Odyssey, and they are very different works.

 Neither is naturalistic (indeed both involve the supernatural) but the Iliad in particular examines the human predicament and individuals' reactions to what life/Fate/The Gods may throw at them in a fashion which still forms the pattern for the tradition of much narrative literature today, with a wealth of strong characters who are almost certainly the first representations of many recognisable archetypes found ever since in European literature. Apart from the Babylonian/Sumerian Gilgamesh epic (which may even have lent it some of the themes) there's almost nothing we know which prefigures this astonishing awakening of narrative ingenuity, and the earlier work has none of its psychological insight. It might seem a little less relevant to our lives today, but at the time of its shaping and oral transmission it must surely have struck almost every listener with at least one situation or feeling that they could identify from personal experience, and understand only too well.

 Since there was nothing else created that could have possibly have brought these things home to them so clearly, would it not have seemed supremely realistic? Isn't realism in art always relative, and conditioned by what has been previously judged as realistic ? 
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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #12 on: 22:42:39, 13-08-2008 »

Quote from:  B S Johnson
I am not interested in telling lies in my own novels.

Does anyone have Beckett's Molloy to hand? I have to say that the elegance of the way in which he trots out those last few sentences, which (in a much more satisfying way than The Usual Suspects manages) re-evaluates the sense of realism (already suspended to the point of strangulation) otherwise maintained.
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