The Radio 3 Boards Forum from myforum365.com
11:16:44, 01-12-2008 *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Whilst we happily welcome all genuine applications to our forum, there may be times when we need to suspend registration temporarily, for example when suffering attacks of spam.
 If you want to join us but find that the temporary suspension has been activated, please try again later.
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  

Pages: [1]
  Print  
Author Topic: Do you need to get the references?  (Read 134 times)
Don Basilio
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 2682


Era solo un mio sospetto


« on: 15:01:26, 04-11-2008 »


That's one of the things, I think, that gives Pope so much force: the allusions are granted value, loved, they have the significance of internalised, memorised texts.


I wonder about this.  I did Pope's Rape of the Lock for A level, and certainly did not know his translation of Homer, or Homer as a poet.  I certainly appreciated the disjunction between ostensible subject and literary convention (although in the poem the mock epic manner seems quite right to describe the curious world of the ladies of Queen Anne's court.)

Certainly I can get just what second rate literature (to use a deplorably Grewvian concept) from deadly parodies: No need to read The Mysteries of Udolpho if I've read Northanger Abbey, or read Precious Bane (if even Virago is still printing it) if I've read Cold Comfort Farm, which I am at the moment.

Presumably many people who enjoy Joyce's Ulysses do not get half the cross word clues references Joyce planted there.

So do you need to get the references?
Logged

To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
SH
***
Posts: 101



« Reply #1 on: 16:04:33, 04-11-2008 »

Don B

No, I don't think you (one Smiley) need/s to get the references, although I also think that you do need to get the references. Or, rather, that not getting the references confirms Pope's nightmares.

Clearly, there is a disjunction between the easy familiarity with Pope's references that Pope's audience possessed* and the situation for most of us - and, certainly, me until I 'did' Pope at UCL as an undergraduate.

And that disjunction is one that began to widen, I think, within possible audiences for Pope's writing in the C18. The whole issue, in Pope, of a mass readership & cultural 'collapse'.

So, complexly, The Dunciad plays both with reference recognition & reference blindness. The satire is both the bathos of the references applied to their targets (as in The Rape of the Lock, which I agree is a perfect allegorical machine. Quite breathtaking) and the reality that those references would be (blissfully) lost on the targets of the satire. So cultural loss (whether, unambiguously a loss is another matter, since it allowed for other discourses. Or, rather, whether it was a loss in the way that Pope & his circle would have conceived it. But it is anger at trivialisation & ignorance).

* whatever Pope's audience was. I'd guess it was a variable audience, variable according to the poems, and there is clearly an element of in-jokiness and a select circle that operates in Pope, runs beneath or across or ... the public 'syntax' of certain of the poems.

What I was driving at, I think Undecided, was that within Pope's writing the references are loved, internalised, and that gives the poems extraordinary rhetorical force. In a way, what a sort of hypostasised Nature can, at times, be for Wordsworth, Classical Culture is for Pope. (Clearly, both are much more complex poets than that: but when Blake wrote that reading Wordsworth had given him a stomach ache which almost killed hm, he was offering a somewhat Pope-ian critique of a type of spiritual materialism).

So, there's no doubt in my mind that that rhetorical force comes across without reference familiarity. But I doubt that Pope would have found that a happy thought. If that makes sense.
« Last Edit: 16:10:36, 04-11-2008 by SH » Logged
time_is_now
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 4653



« Reply #2 on: 16:25:12, 04-11-2008 »

I think you can get that there are references without always getting what they are. I wrote an article about how I think this works in the music of Robin Holloway - I can send it to anyone who's interested and is willing to supply me with an email address.

But I think Julien SH (still can't get that right) is right too. The authors in question wouldn't always be happy with the idea that what's going on is anything less than a perfectly shared experience of a perfectly internalised world of references between composer/poet and listener/reader.

What about when the poet says you don't have to get them: these fragments I have shored against my ruins ...? Or in the Cantos, where the different languages and even alphabets throw a distinct exoticist gloss on the whole question of who the quoted/alluded-to material 'belongs' to?
Logged

The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
Kittybriton
*****
Gender: Female
Posts: 2690


Thank you for the music ...


WWW
« Reply #3 on: 21:35:07, 04-11-2008 »

I blush to admit that I often feel I am missing The References. Does it cost much to subscribe?

KB pp. Chas. Pooter
« Last Edit: 21:37:38, 04-11-2008 by Kittybriton » Logged

Click me ->About me
or me ->my handmade store
No, I'm not a complete idiot. I'm only a halfwit. In fact I'm actually a catfish.
SH
***
Posts: 101



« Reply #4 on: 09:52:48, 05-11-2008 »

I think you can get that there are references without always getting what they are. I wrote an article about how I think this works in the music of Robin Holloway - I can send it to anyone who's interested and is willing to supply me with an email address.

But I think Julien SH (still can't get that right) is right too. The authors in question wouldn't always be happy with the idea that what's going on is anything less than a perfectly shared experience of a perfectly internalised world of references between composer/poet and listener/reader.

What about when the poet says you don't have to get them: these fragments I have shored against my ruins ...? Or in the Cantos, where the different languages and even alphabets throw a distinct exoticist gloss on the whole question of who the quoted/alluded-to material 'belongs' to?

t-i-n

Just a thought about Pound. I think quotations/allusions in Pound do exist in an uneasy space between the public and the private - as does Pound's poetry, of course.

In The Pisan Cantos and the later Cantos the sense of them as something shored, fragmentary, clung to, consoling & yet also, perhaps, incriminating/incriminated becomes paramount.

(I've sent you a message Smiley)
Logged
SH
***
Posts: 101



« Reply #5 on: 09:56:41, 05-11-2008 »

I blush to admit that I often feel I am missing The References. Does it cost much to subscribe?

KB pp. Chas. Pooter

£3.50 per issue, first two for the price of one.

Each issue contains a lovingly crafted, mass-produced, facsimile original Masterpiece of Culture. Guaranteed to opress impress your friends and neighbours.

In volume 1, a life size scale model of St Peter's Rome complete with Leaning Tower of Mona Lisa.
Logged
time_is_now
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 4653



« Reply #6 on: 14:13:04, 05-11-2008 »

What about when the poet says you don't have to get them: these fragments I have shored against my ruins ...? Or in the Cantos, where the different languages and even alphabets throw a distinct exoticist gloss on the whole question of who the quoted/alluded-to material 'belongs' to?

t-i-n

Just a thought about Pound. I think quotations/allusions in Pound do exist in an uneasy space between the public and the private - as does Pound's poetry, of course.
Yes, but whose private, is what I meant: Pound's references are foreign to him too, not just to us (cf. Pope)? Not sure if I've got a point here but that's what I had in mind ...
Logged

The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
Pages: [1]
  Print  
 
Jump to: