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Author Topic: Poetry Appreciation Thread.  (Read 19823 times)
harmonyharmony
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« Reply #510 on: 21:39:34, 17-03-2008 »

You can play the same game with Tennyson and Browning.  I like Tennyson, in small doses, but not so gone on Browning.

Now I can take or leave Tennyson, but Browning...
Here's the Soliloquy of the Spanish Cloister

Gr-r-r-there go, my heart's abhorrence!
Water your damned flower-pots, do!
If hate killed men, Brother Lawrence,
God's blood, would not mine kill you!
What? your myrtle-bush wants trimming?
Oh, that rose has prior claims--
Needs its leaden vase filled brimming?
Hell dry you up with its flames!

At the meal we sit together:
Salve tibi! I must hear
Wise talk of the kind of weather,
Sort of season, time of year:
Not a plenteous cork-crop: scarcely
Dare we hope oak-galls, I doubt:
What's the Latin name for "parsley"?

What's the Greek name for Swine's Snout?

Whew! We'll have our platter burnished,
Laid with care on our own shelf!
With a fire-new spoon we're furnished,
And a goblet for ourself,
Rinsed like something sacrificial
Ere 'tis fit to touch our chaps —
Marked with L. for our initial!
(He-he! There his lily snaps!)

Saint, forsooth! While brown Dolores
Squats outside the Convent bank
With Sanchicha, telling stories,
Steeping tresses in the tank,
Blue-black, lustrous, thick like horsehairs,
— Can't I see his dead eye glow,
Bright as 'twere a Barbary corsair's?
(That is, if he'd let it show!)

When he finishes refection,
Knife and fork he never lays
Cross-wise, to my recollection,
As I do, in Jesu's praise.
I the Trinity illustrate,
Drinking watered orange-pulp —
In three sips the Arian frustrate
While he drains his at one gulp.

Oh, those melons? If he's able
We're to have a feast! so nice!
One goes to the Abbot's table,
All of us eager to get a slice.
How go on your flowers? None double?
Not one fruit-sort can you spy?
Strange! And I, too, at such trouble,
Keep them close-nipped on the sly!

There's a great text in Galatians,
Once you trip on it, entails
Twenty-nine distinct damnations,
One sure, if another fails.
If I trip him just a-dying,
Sure of heaven as sure can be,
Spin him round and send him flying
Off to hell, a Manichee?

Or, my scrofulous French novel,
On grey paper with blunt type!
Simply glance at it, you grovel
Hand and foot in Belial's gripe:
If I double down its pages
At the woeful sixteenth print,
When he gathers his greengages,
Ope a sieve and slip it in't?

Or, there's Satan! — one might venture
Pledge one's soul to him, yet leave
Such a flaw in the indenture
As he'd miss it till, past retrieve,
Blasted lay that rose-acacia
We're so proud of! Hy, Zy, Hine . . .
'st! There's Vespers! Plena gratia
Ave, Virgo.
Gr-r-r — you swine!
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anonymous student of the University of Berkeley, California quoted in H. Draper, 'The new student revolt' (New York: Grove Press, 1965)
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pim_derks
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« Reply #511 on: 21:41:44, 17-03-2008 »

When I was at University there was an extremely clever young man on the course in the year after me who was Jewish by birth.  (Well, you can't usually be Jewish any other way.  What I mean is that his practice of his ancestral faith was limited to going home for Yom Kippur, when he told me that it was so much easier to get money out of his parents after they had all been fasting together for 24 hours.)

We were very impressed that in his first tutorial he had compared Dickens to Kafka.  Old hat now, I imagine, which shows how unsophisticated the rest of us were.

"We read Shakespeare differently after Samuel Johnson or Coleridge; Bleak House has altered under pressure of its own influence on the parables of bureaucracy in Kafka."

George Steiner (also Jewish), Antigones. How the Antigone Legend has Endured in Western Literature, Art, and Thought (1984), page 105.
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"People hate anything well made. It gives them a guilty conscience." John Betjeman
time_is_now
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« Reply #512 on: 22:38:04, 17-03-2008 »

George Steiner is a twit. I would use a stronger word if there weren't ladies present.
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
time_is_now
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« Reply #513 on: 22:40:54, 17-03-2008 »

I expect you know Francis Quarles's poem that Britten set as Canticle 1? I've always suspected that the homoeroticism was more important was more important to the composer than the Christian content.
As indeed has been the homoeroticism of Quarles's obvious source poem, the Song of Songs, to many of the composers that have set it (the most beautiful to my mind being Julian Anderson's Shir Hashirim, where to my mind the use of a high soprano is just about the only non-homoerotic aspect of the piece).
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
pim_derks
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« Reply #514 on: 22:41:27, 17-03-2008 »

George Steiner is a twit. I would use a stronger word if there weren't ladies present.

I can't talk to people who don't like George Steiner. I have the same thing with Laurel & Hardy. I simply can't have a conversation with people who don't like Laurel & Hardy.
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"People hate anything well made. It gives them a guilty conscience." John Betjeman
time_is_now
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« Reply #515 on: 22:46:59, 17-03-2008 »

I don't understand how you can profess not to like seriousness in art, Pim, and yet still be impressed by George Steiner's entirely fake seriousness.

When I was at Cambridge I went to a public lecture by Steiner. When the discussion was opened to the floor afterwards, I wanted to put my hand up and say, 'Shut up, you silly old man,' but for some reason I held back. Every time since then that I've read any of his idiotic posturings I've regretted that I was so shy.

I love Laurel & Hardy, if it's any help.
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
martle
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« Reply #516 on: 22:52:49, 17-03-2008 »

If it's a fight, then count me in.

Steiner: 1
Laurel and Hardy: 3
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time_is_now
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« Reply #517 on: 22:55:22, 17-03-2008 »

You can count James Wood in too, although I don't know if he likes Laurel and Hardy.

I used to spend a lot of time telling people what was wrong with George Steiner, and then I discovered that James Wood had said it all, much better than I can.
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
pim_derks
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« Reply #518 on: 23:07:08, 17-03-2008 »

I don't understand how you can profess not to like seriousness in art, Pim, and yet still be impressed by George Steiner's entirely fake seriousness.

I said that I had no problems with serious theologians or philosophers. Steiner is not an artist. Thank goodness for that. He wrote only one novel and it wasn't a good one.

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"People hate anything well made. It gives them a guilty conscience." John Betjeman
strinasacchi
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« Reply #519 on: 00:40:28, 18-03-2008 »

STRINA -  If you're still there, any comments on parallels between Herbert and Biber's Mystery Sonatas?  C17 adoptions of secular forms to religious content, with some rather quaint features?

Mmm, interesting thought, DB!  I'm a bit too tired at the moment to take it up, but I will lodge it in my brain and return to it once (ironically enough) holy week is over and I've got some time.

One "quaint feature" of the Mystery Sonatas that springs to mind is how the strings are arranged in the Crucifixion sonata - the one where the "D" and "A" strings are crossed over (they're not actually swapped at the peg and tailpiece - the strings cross behind the nut and behind the bridge).  Crossing them over produces a fairly obvious "X" behind the bridge.  The "X" could be a reference to the cross, of course, although it seems odd that this particular sonata would bear a reference to the St Andrew cross.  But it might make more sense to see it as a reference to the Greek letter "chi," which is associated with Christ (as in "Xmas").
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #520 on: 09:45:20, 18-03-2008 »

A The Browning reminds me of John Betjemin

B  In the Quarles, the only religious clue I note is the quote from the Song of Songs, as tinners says (My beloved is mine.)  The speaker could be a woman, of course.
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
Mary Chambers
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« Reply #521 on: 10:29:22, 18-03-2008 »

In the Quarles, the only religious clue I note is the quote from the Song of Songs, as tinners says (My beloved is mine.) 

That's always been my reaction, DB, though I can't pretend to know much about mysticism - but the poem is called A Divine Rapture, and until relatively recently Britten's setting of it was invariably described as a purely religious piece, as, I suppose, the title Canticle would imply. I admit I've always been apt to think irreverently, "Who are you trying to kid?". I suspect I lack the true spiritual dimension.
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #522 on: 10:44:18, 18-03-2008 »

No, Mary, hole in one in that case.

I believe that when the French Ambassador to Rome saw Bernini's famous carving of the Ectsasy of St Teresa in Santa Maria della Vittoria, he remarked  "If that's divine love, I know all about it."

Christian devotion in the West since the Middle Ages has had a large share of personal devotion to Jesus and in classic evangelicism it was the principal content of religion.  It comes as a surprise to realise that earlier and in the Orthodox East it is not particularly in evidence.

(Ie Prayer to God, silent contemplation, liturgical recital of the scriptures, etc.)
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
pim_derks
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« Reply #523 on: 16:12:52, 18-03-2008 »

I found two interviews with George Steiner (recorded last July) on Youtube and I have to say that I found them quite interesting:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bEeAiVnGbM


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPtJeGo0P6w&feature=related


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"People hate anything well made. It gives them a guilty conscience." John Betjeman
time_is_now
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« Reply #524 on: 00:38:23, 20-03-2008 »

Soneto XVII

No te amo como si fueras rosa de sal, topacio
o flecha de claveles que propagan el fuego:
te amo como se aman ciertas cosas oscuras,
secretamente, entre la sombra y el alma.

Te amo como la planta que no florece y lleva
dentro de sí, escondida, la luz de aquellas flores,
y gracias a tu amor vive oscuro en mi cuerpo
el apretado aroma que ascendió de la tierra.

Te amo sin saber cómo, ni cuándo, ni de dónde,
te amo directamente sin problemas ni orgullo:
así te amo porque no sé amar de otra manera,

sino así de este modo en que no soy ni eres,
tan cerca que tu mano sobre mi pecho es mía,
tan cerca que se cierran tus ojos con mi sueño.



I do not love you as if you were salt-rose, or topaz,
or the arrow of carnations the fire shoots off.
I love you as certain dark things are to be loved,
in secret, between the shadow and the soul.

I love you as the plant that never blooms
but carries in itself the light of hidden flowers;
thanks to your love a certain solid fragrance,
risen from the earth, lives darkly in my body.

I love you without knowing how, or when, or from where.
I love you straightforwardly, without complexities or pride;
so I love you because I know no other way

than this: where 'I' does not exist, nor 'you',
so close that your hand on my chest is my hand,
so close that your eyes close as I fall asleep.

Pablo Neruda
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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