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Author Topic: Poetry Appreciation Thread.  (Read 19823 times)
Don Basilio
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Era solo un mio sospetto


« Reply #525 on: 11:17:06, 20-03-2008 »

the homoeroticism of Quarles's obvious source poem, the Song of Songs, to many of the composers that have set it

To composers, maybe, and probably to many Christian mystics, from Bernard of Clairvaux onwards.

But The Song of Solomon is undoubtedly at face value a celebration of male-female sexuality.  The aspect that can make it appeal to non-straights, as well as to feminist commentators, is that the sexual attractiveness of the man is treated identically to that of the woman, ie with wildly OTT Middle Eastern hyperbole, eg  5.15 His legs are alabaster columns, set upon bases of gold. His appearance is like Lebanon, choice as the cedars.

Not of course that I approve of the boring old fundamentalist view of taking scripture at face value in any case.
« Last Edit: 18:04:10, 21-03-2008 by Don Basilio » Logged

To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
George Garnett
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« Reply #526 on: 11:33:41, 20-03-2008 »

  ...   while over in Psalm 147 we are told that the Lord 'taketh not pleasure in the legs of a man'.

What? Not even those gently rippling alabaster ones? It's a darn tricky business fine-tuning one's preferences to the demands of scripture.
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Don Basilio
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Era solo un mio sospetto


« Reply #527 on: 11:38:07, 20-03-2008 »

Back to tinner's Spanish love poem

I hardly ever really get into poetry the first time round.  And I appreciate the definition "that poetry is what is lost in translation".  However from the translation given it seems a wonderful piece.  Thank you.
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
Mary Chambers
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« Reply #528 on: 11:53:20, 20-03-2008 »

Back to tinner's Spanish love poem

And I appreciate the definition "that poetry is what is lost in translation".  However from the translation given it seems a wonderful piece.  Thank you.

It certainly does. It's so frustrating when there's a language barrier. My Spanish and Italian are pretty bad - Spanish almost non-existent - and even though I can work out which word means what, I know I'm not getting the nuances.
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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #529 on: 11:59:25, 20-03-2008 »

I appreciate the definition "that poetry is what is lost in translation".

Which reminds me... from the sublime to the ridiculous:

Audieris in quo, Flacce, balneo plausum,
Maronis illic esse mentulam scito.

Martial, Epigram Book Nine XXXIII

If from the baths you hear a round of applause,
Maron's giant prick is bound to be the cause.

(translated by James Michie)

I think that Neruda poem is just gorgeous. So much so I don't want to say anything else about it.
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'is this all we can do?'
anonymous student of the University of Berkeley, California quoted in H. Draper, 'The new student revolt' (New York: Grove Press, 1965)
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richard barrett
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« Reply #530 on: 13:30:29, 20-03-2008 »

bound to be the cause.
I hadn't realised that the Romans invented spam e-mail as well as all that other stuff.
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time_is_now
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« Reply #531 on: 15:00:59, 20-03-2008 »

"that poetry is what is lost in translation"
Auden was very troubled that he felt he'd been influenced by Cavafy, despite only having read him in translation. He couldn't understand how the poetry could have come through.

Another definition of poetry was Pound's: 'Poetry is news that stays news.'
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
harmonyharmony
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« Reply #532 on: 16:00:24, 20-03-2008 »

Another definition of poetry was Pound's: 'Poetry is news that stays news.'

And speaking of Pound...

PIERE VIDAL OLD

It is of Piere Vidal, the fool par excellence of all Provence, of whom the tale tells how he ran mad, as a wolf, because of his love for Loba of Penautier, and how men hunted him with dogs through the mountains of Cabaret and brought him for dead to the dwelling of this Loba (she-wolf) of Penautier, and how she and her Lord had him healed and made welcome,and he stayed some time at that court. He speaks:

When I but think upon the great dead days
And turn my mind upon that splendid madness,
Lo! I do curse my strength
And blame the sun his gladness;
For that the one is dead
And the red sun mocks my sadness.

Behold me, Vidal, that was fool of fools!
Swift as the king wolf was I and as strong
When tall stags fled me through the alder brakes,
And every jongleur knew me in his song,
And the hounds fled and the deer fled
And none fled over long.

Even the grey pack knew me and knew fear.
God! how the swiftest hind's blood spurted hot
Over the sharpened teeth and purpling lips!
Hot was that hind's blood yet it scorched me not
As did first scorn, then lips of the Penautier!
Aye ye are fools, if ye think time can blot

From Piere Vidal's remembrance that blue night.
God! but the purple of the sky was deep!
Clear, deep, translucent, so the stars me seemed
Set deep in crystal; and because my sleep
Rare visitor came not, the Saints I guerdon
For that restlessness Piere set to keep

One more fool's vigil with the hollyhocks.
Swift came the Loba, as a branch that's caught,
Torn, green and silent in the swollen Rhone,
Green was her mantle, close, and wrought
Of some thin silk stuff that's scarce stuff at all,
But like a mist wherethrough her white form fought,

And conquered! Ah God! conquered!
Silent my mate came as the night was still.
Speech? Words? Faugh! Who talks of words and love?!
Hot is such love and silent,
Silent as fate is, and as strong until
It faints in taking and in giving all.

Stark, keen, triumphant, till it plays at death.
God! she was white then, splendid as some tomb
High wrought of marble, and the panting breath
Ceased utterly. Well, then I waited, drew,
Half-sheathed, then naked from its saffron sheath
Drew full this dagger that doth tremble here.

Just then she woke and mocked the less keen blade.
Ah God, the Loba! and my only mate!
Was there such flesh made ever and unmade!
God curse the years that turn such women grey!
Behold here Vidal, that was hunted, flayed,
Shamed and yet bowed not and that won at last.

And yet I curse the sun for his red gladness,
I that have known strath, garth, brake, dale,
And every run- away of the wood through that great madness,
Behold me shrivelled as an old oak's trunk
And made men's mock'ry in my rotten sadness !

No man hath heard the glory of my days:
No man hath dared and won his dare as I:
One night, one body and one welding flame!
What do ye own, ye niggards! that can buy
Such glory of the earth? Or who will win
Such battle-guerdon with his 'prowesse high' ?

O age gone lax! O stunted followers,
That mask at passions and desire desires,
Behold me shrivelled, and your mock of mocks;
And yet I mock you by the mighty fires
That burnt me to this ash.

Ah! Cabaret! Ah Cabaret, thy hills again!
Take your hands off me! . . . [Sniffing the air]
Ha! this scent is hot!
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'is this all we can do?'
anonymous student of the University of Berkeley, California quoted in H. Draper, 'The new student revolt' (New York: Grove Press, 1965)
http://www.myspace.com/itensemble
SusanDoris
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« Reply #533 on: 20:50:37, 22-03-2008 »

I better come clean as to why I posted Love III a page back, apart from the fact it was time we had some Herbert.

I wanted to see if someone coming to it with no preconceptions would realise it is a religious work at all.  It is the last in a collection of exclusively religious verse, it crops up in religious anthologies and funerals, RVW sets it as one of Five Mystical Songs, but if you didn't know, would you realise it is a dialogue between a human being and Christ?  But if you didn't know the background of some phrases I doubt it.

I hope SusanDoris will forgive me if she thinks I am guilty of a Jesuitical trick, but since you all rushed in to say it was religious, the experiment was a failure.
Firstly, apologies for not visiting this site this last week. I read the poem, but one of those 'puzzled' emoticons would have best described my reaction! I would never have guessed it was religious. However, now that I know, I have had another look ... and therefore have increased my understanding. Thank you.

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Don Basilio
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Era solo un mio sospetto


« Reply #534 on: 01:27:00, 23-03-2008 »

Thank you, SusanD, for confirming my suspicion.  George Herbert's Love III is not obviously religious.

But bear with me for Easter Day with another Herbert poem, also set by Vaughan Williams as part of his Five Mystical Songs.

EASTER.

    RISE heart ;  thy Lord is risen.  Sing his praise
                                        Without delayes,
    Who takes thee by the hand, that thou likewise
                                        With him mayst rise :
    That, as his death calcined thee to dust,
    His life may make thee gold, and much more just.

    Awake, my lute, and struggle for thy part
                                        With all thy art.
    The crosse taught all wood to resound his name
                                        Who bore the same.
    His stretched sinews taught all strings, what key
    Is best to celebrate this most high day.

    Consort both heart and lute, and twist a song
                                        Pleasant and long :
    Or since all music is but three parts vied,
                                        And multiplied ;
    O let thy blessed Spirit bear a part,
    And make up our defects with his sweet art.



            I got me flowers to straw thy way ;
            I got me boughs off many a tree :
            But thou wast up by break of day,
            And brought’st thy sweets along with thee.

            The Sunne arising in the East,
            Though he give light, and th’ East perfume ;
            If they should offer to contest
            With thy arising, they presume.

            Can there be any day but this,
            Though many sunnes to shine endeavour ?
            We count three hundred, but we misse :
            There is but one, and that one ever.
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
time_is_now
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« Reply #535 on: 01:36:19, 23-03-2008 »

Happy Easter DonB!

You're missing a tau, I believe. Wink (And your nus have turned into upsilons ...)
« Last Edit: 01:38:34, 23-03-2008 by time_is_now » Logged

The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
Don Basilio
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Era solo un mio sospetto


« Reply #536 on: 11:40:26, 25-03-2008 »

George Herbert trivia:

He was born in Wales, at Montgomery.

His family was minor aristocracy, distantly related to the Herberts of Wilton House, Earls of Pembroke.

He was Orator of the University of Cambridge.

He gave up an academic career to be a country priest and was Vicar of Bemerton, between Salisbury and his grand relatives at Wilton.

His collection of poems was not published during his life time.

The old vicarage at Bemerton, (not the building Herbert would have known but the successor to his home) is now the home of the novelist Vikram Seth, author of A Suitable Boy, etc. 
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
pim_derks
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« Reply #537 on: 09:26:03, 26-03-2008 »

When I was at University there was an extremely clever young man on the course in the year after me who was Jewish by birth.  (Well, you can't usually be Jewish any other way.  What I mean is that his practice of his ancestral faith was limited to going home for Yom Kippur, when he told me that it was so much easier to get money out of his parents after they had all been fasting together for 24 hours.)

We were very impressed that in his first tutorial he had compared Dickens to Kafka.

The names of Dickens and Kafka are both in this article about the possibility of a commemorative statue of Charles Dickens:

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/news/dickens-family-seek-to-overturn-writers-dying-wish-for-no-memorials-799870.html

Roll Eyes
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"People hate anything well made. It gives them a guilty conscience." John Betjeman
Andy D
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« Reply #538 on: 20:42:16, 26-03-2008 »

I remember George Herbert's The Pulley from a class that I attended in c1993. It was run by a recently retired teacher who was somewhat carried away by the chance of teaching a more appreciative class than he'd had at school. However he went completely OTT. He spent a fair part of the session on The Pulley trying to investigate whether it is physically possible to winch one's way nearer to God - it became a bit like an Applied Maths lesson!

George Herbert The Pulley                     

When God at first made man,
Having a glasse of blessings standing by;
Let us (said he) poure on him all we can:
Let the worlds riches, which dispersed lie,
Contract into a span.

So strength first made a way;
Then beautie flow’d, then wisdome, honour, pleasure:
When almost all was out, God made a stay,
Perceiving that alone, of all his treasure,
Rest in the bottome lay.

For if I should (said he)
Bestow this jewell also on my creature,
He would adore my gifts in stead of me,
And rest in Nature, not the God of Nature:
So both should losers be.

Yet let him keep the rest,
But keep them with repining restlesnesse:
Let him be rich and wearie, that at least,
If goodnesse leade him not, yet wearinesse
May tosse him to my breast.
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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #539 on: 20:47:03, 26-03-2008 »

May tosse him to my breast.

Ah, good to see that old classic (which made a surprising (at least my external examiner thought so) appearance in my viva) in Herbert's vocabulary.
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'is this all we can do?'
anonymous student of the University of Berkeley, California quoted in H. Draper, 'The new student revolt' (New York: Grove Press, 1965)
http://www.myspace.com/itensemble
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