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Author Topic: Poetry Appreciation Thread.  (Read 19823 times)
SH
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« Reply #885 on: 13:52:58, 04-11-2008 »

I find the Hardy frustrating, especially the line 'I set every tree in my June-time'. I know what it means (what he wants it to mean), but it relies too much (for my liking) on the reader acquiescing in an imprecision caused by the attempt to render feeling and sense in a syntactical and expressive language which is not up to the task, or which has been insufficiently honed for the task. I'd rather have an ironic disjunction of the 'container' to the 'content' than this inept sincerity, though I'd prefer real sincerity to either if it could be shown to be possible.

Hardy's curious. I'd agree with that about the poetry that looked to Hardy as a model of plainness, but I don't think I do about Hardy & the poem that Mary's posted.

I do find ironic disjunction of the 'container' to the 'content' - if anything, perhaps, it's over-signalled. In lines 3-4 you have the very a-natural image of waltzers tossing their heads, presumably to attract a partner and then the line that bothers you continues that: "set in my June-time" stages the event, makes overt its theatricality.

And I like the last line, which has a typical ghostliness:

"And none will in time be seen"

which could give and in time will disappear (worn figure of transience, although transience doesn't feel all that worn Sad) or could give a multiple sense of the trees only being seen out of time plus, literally, the non-trees being seen in time. Not an Either/Or. Something like The Turn of the Screw. They are not there but they are there, in time, and can be seen.

Which is unsettling.

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Don Basilio
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Era solo un mio sospetto


« Reply #886 on: 13:54:40, 04-11-2008 »

English poets do have a thing about dead trees, don't they?

William Cowper and his poplars

(The poplars are fell'd! farewell to the shade
And the whispering sound of the cool colonnade;
The winds play no longer and sing in the leaves,
Nor Ouse on his bosom their image receives. )

Gerard Manley Hopkins and his poplars at Binsey
 (My aspens dear, whose airy cages quelled
Quelled or quenched in leaves the leaping sun,
All felled, felled, are all felled;
Of a fresh and following folded rank
Not spared, not one  
That dandled a sandalled
Shadow that swam or sank
On meadow and river and wind-wandering weed-winding bank. )

I heard the story of some poetry loving visitors to Oxford wanting to go and see the original poplars.  Some people don't only not read poems, they don't even bother to read the title.  (Binsey Poplars, felled 1879)
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
SH
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Posts: 101



« Reply #887 on: 13:59:45, 04-11-2008 »

Rich in Vitamin C

Under her brow the snowy wing-case
      delivers truly the surprise
of days which slide under sunlight
          past loose glass in the door
      into the reflection of honour spread
through the incomplete, the trusted. So
      darkly the stain skips as a livery
of your pause like an apple pip,
      the baltic loved one who sleeps.
 
Or as syrup in a cloud, down below in
      the cup, you excuse each folded
cry of the finch's wit, this flush
      scattered over our slant of the
          day rocked in water, you say
      this much. A waver of attention at
the surface, shews the arch there and
          the purpose we really cut;
      an ounce down by the water, which
 
in cross-fire from injustice too large
      to hold he lets slither
                                            from starry fingers
      noting the herbal jolt of cordite
and its echo: is this our screen, on some
      street we hardly guessed could mark
an idea bred to idiocy by the clear
      sight-lines ahead. You come in
          by the same door, you carry
 
what cannot be left for its own
      sweet shimmer of reason, its false blood;
the same tint I hear with the pulse it touches
      and will not melt. Such shading
of the rose to its stock tips the bolt
      from the sky, rising in its effect of what
motto we call peace talks. And yes the
      quiet turn of your page is the day
          tilting so, faded in the light.
 
J.H.Prynne
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time_is_now
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« Reply #888 on: 14:12:22, 04-11-2008 »

Thanks SH. I need to mull that over, but you may be right. I guess I'm aware of Hardy's irony, but that line in the second stanza seemed so patently contrived for the scansion that it seemed po-faced as it came. Which in itself makes his lyricism of the sentimental type, I'm aware. (I only recently discovered that Schiller's sentimental is subdivided into satire and elegy.)

And of course I'm a sucker for any pun with time in it, but they're plentiful enough for me to be choosy when the mood takes me.

I've often struggled with Prynne and I'll contemplate your latest over lunch (sausages and bacon, but I'm throwing in half a red pepper for the vitamin-rich experience). I haven't read that Jacket article yet either, but I haven't forgotten about it.
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
Turfan Fragment
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« Reply #889 on: 18:10:29, 04-11-2008 »

The Ash Grove

Half of the grove stood dead, and those that yet lived made
Little more than the dead ones made of shade.
If they led to a house, long before they had seen its fall:
But they welcomed me; I was glad without cause and delayed.

Scarce a hundred paces under the trees was the interval
Paces each sweeter than sweetest miles but nothing at all,
Not even the spirits of memory and fear with restless wing,
Could climb down in to molest me over the wall

That I passed through at either end without noticing.
And now an ash grove far from those hills can bring
The same tranquillity in which I wander a ghost
With a ghostly gladness, as if I heard a girl sing

The song of the Ash Grove soft as love uncrossed,
And then in a crowd or in distance it were lost,
But the moment unveiled something unwilling to die
And I had what most I desired, without search or desert or cost.

For some reason this reminds me of Gerhard Rühm's 'recompositions' of poets whom he did not admire. He would take all the words from a particularly bad poem (in this case, Anton Wildgans -- whom some people do find a good poet), and rearranging them to form new texts that would mean something different and yet somehow underline the stylistic problems with the original (e.g., putting all the words that are used too often right next to one another, as in

und immer
und immer
und

)
I'll see if I can round up my example; Rühm's version is hilarious. One of the deadliest things in a bad poem is when certain words are inadequately contemplated and simply become overused, even trivial words like 'und'
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time_is_now
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« Reply #890 on: 17:37:53, 05-11-2008 »

Here's the opinion-dividing Dylan (no not that one!) - it was the first thing that came to mind (I'm just 11 hours into my own thirtieth year after all ... or is he just starting his thirty-first here??).


                   POEM IN OCTOBER

        It was my thirtieth year to heaven
     Woke to my hearing from harbour and neighbour wood
        And the mussel pooled and the heron
                Priested shore
           The morning beckon
     With water praying and call of seagull and rook
     And the knock of sailing boats on the webbed wall
           Myself to set foot
                That second
        In the still sleeping town and set forth.

        My birthday began with the water-
     Birds and the birds of the winged trees flying my name
        Above the farms and the white horses
                And I rose
            In a rainy autumn
     And walked abroad in shower of all my days
     High tide and the heron dived when I took the road
            Over the border
                And the gates
        Of the town closed as the town awoke.

        A springful of larks in a rolling
     Cloud and the roadside bushes brimming with whistling
        Blackbirds and the sun of October
                Summery
            On the hill's shoulder,
     Here were fond climates and sweet singers suddenly
     Come in the morning where I wandered and listened
            To the rain wringing
                Wind blow cold
        In the wood faraway under me.

        Pale rain over the dwindling harbour
     And over the sea wet church the size of a snail
        With its horns through mist and the castle
                Brown as owls
             But all the gardens
     Of spring and summer were blooming in the tall tales
     Beyond the border and under the lark full cloud.
             There could I marvel
                My birthday
        Away but the weather turned around.

        It turned away from the blithe country
     And down the other air and the blue altered sky
        Streamed again a wonder of summer
                With apples
             Pears and red currants
     And I saw in the turning so clearly a child's
     Forgotten mornings when he walked with his mother
             Through the parables
                Of sunlight
        And the legends of the green chapels

        And the twice told fields of infancy
     That his tears burned my cheeks and his heart moved in mine.
        These were the woods the river and the sea
                Where a boy
             In the listening
     Summertime of the dead whispered the truth of his joy
     To the trees and the stones and the fish in the tide.
             And the mystery
                Sang alive
        Still in the water and singing birds.

        And there could I marvel my birthday
     Away but the weather turned around. And the true
        Joy of the long dead child sang burning
                In the sun.
             It was my thirtieth
        Year to heaven stood there then in the summer noon
        Though the town below lay leaved with October blood.
             O may my heart's truth
                Still be sung
        On this high hill in a year's turning.

                                                     -- Dylan Thomas
« Last Edit: 17:39:27, 05-11-2008 by time_is_now » Logged

The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
Antheil
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« Reply #891 on: 17:56:22, 05-11-2008 »

That is beautiful tinners.

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Mary Chambers
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« Reply #892 on: 18:00:27, 05-11-2008 »

There was once a correspondence in a newspaper - possibly The Guardian - about the most beautiful lines in English poetry, and someone suggested the start of the third stanza of Poem in October, "a springful of larks in a rolling cloud". I don't think so, though I like the poem. The most beautiful line to me is Shakespeare, from Sonnet 73, "Bare ruined choirs where late the sweet birds sang". Not an academic exercise, I know, and not intended to be.

(Happy birthday, tinners Grin Grin Grin Do you feel old yet?)
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Don Basilio
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Era solo un mio sospetto


« Reply #893 on: 18:16:22, 05-11-2008 »

Don't be silly, Mary, he's not old.  Just maturing nicely.  Bit like us, really.

This is a message for SH,  (SH, can you hear me?) to say thank you for the Troilus and Criesyde.  I did vast amounts of Chaucer in the fifth and sixth forms and at university, but usually Canterbury Tales.  I knew about the close of Troilus, but I hadn't seen it for years.

My most beautiful line, or couplet?  From The Dunciad

To happy convents, bosom'd deep in vines
Where slumber abbots, purple as their wines.

Pope is describing the Grand Tour to Italy.  I prefer Italy to Wales.  Sorry, but there it is.
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
Antheil
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Posts: 3206



« Reply #894 on: 18:28:57, 05-11-2008 »

I prefer Italy to Wales.  Sorry, but there it is.


And do they have rum and lavabread in Italy?  Enquired Second Voice Drowned.
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Reality, sa molesworth 2, is so sordid it makes me shudder
SH
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Posts: 101



« Reply #895 on: 22:15:44, 05-11-2008 »

Don Basilio

Do you know Robert Henryson's Testament of Cresseid? That's a bleak, wonderful poem.

Oh those couplets of Pope's. To think in couplets ....

The thing about Wales, I'm sure, is that it's much more Welsh than Italy is. Or could ever be. Or something.
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Don Basilio
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Era solo un mio sospetto


« Reply #896 on: 11:51:05, 06-11-2008 »

Now someone has encouraged me, here's the bit of The Rape of the Lock I've been meaning to put on ever since I spoke to a board member in the summer who is the only person I know to describe herself as a feminist who enjoyed wearing an C18 corset to play Vivaldi.

Toilet does not have its non-U meaning here.

And now, unveil'd, the Toilet stands display'd,
Each Silver Vase in mystic Order laid.
First, rob'd in White, the Nymph intent adores
With Head uncover'd, the Cosmetic Pow'rs.
A heav'nly Image in the Glass appears,
To that she bends, to that her Eyes she rears;
Th' inferior Priestess, at her Altar's side,
Trembling, begins the sacred Rites of Pride.
Unnumber'd Treasures ope at once, and here
The various Off'rings of the World appear;
From each she nicely culls with curious Toil,
And decks the Goddess with the glitt'ring Spoil.
This casket India's glowing Gems unlocks,
And all Arabia breathes from yonder Box.
The Tortoise here and Elephant unite,
Transform'd to Combs, the speckled and the white.
Here Files of Pins extend their shining Rows,
Puffs, Powders, Patches, Bibles, Billet-doux.

The line And all Arabia breathes from yonder Box is another of my candidates for the most beautiful line in English poetry.
« Last Edit: 11:53:46, 06-11-2008 by Don Basilio » Logged

To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
Don Basilio
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Gender: Male
Posts: 2682


Era solo un mio sospetto


« Reply #897 on: 11:55:58, 06-11-2008 »

SH, I have read Henryson in my time.  I think there's a student copy back at my mum's which I'll try to look out on my next visit.  Also Dunbar.  (Anty - I know they're not Welsh, but they are Scots, so that's something.)
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
Antheil
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Gender: Female
Posts: 3206



« Reply #898 on: 18:42:20, 07-11-2008 »

I love The Rape of the Lock, so funny, have just got my copy of Pope out now.  It is a rather lovely tooled leather and gilded 1866 edition  of his Poetical Works illustrated by John Gilbert, edited by the Rev. H.F. Cary, how it may differ from other earlier/later versions I do not know.
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Reality, sa molesworth 2, is so sordid it makes me shudder
Don Basilio
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Era solo un mio sospetto


« Reply #899 on: 20:50:57, 07-11-2008 »

Glad you like the Rape of the Lock, anty.

I got to know it before I had ever heard of feminism, and I have this awful suspicion that it might be irredemibly sexist.  (SH, I know you're a straight bloke, but you're pretty damn bright and I would be glad to have your opinion.)

Did your Victorian clergyman (I think Cary did the standard blank verse version of Dante)  include in his edition the lines

O hads't thou, cruel, been content to seize
Hairs out of sight, or any hairs but these.

?

If he did, it is complete and a tooled and gilded edition sounds just right.
« Last Edit: 21:32:30, 07-11-2008 by Don Basilio » Logged

To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
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