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Sydney Grew
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« on: 11:07:37, 04-07-2007 » |
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Over recent days we have been listening to Charles Stockhausen's Sixth Piano Piece. It goes on for twenty-five minutes, and seems to be divided into about fifty little sections. Within each tiny but complex section we do find repetitions, relationships, and rudimentary developments; but so far we have been able to discover little discernible connection between any one of these sections and any of the others. The rhythms as notated are we would venture to say unintelligible or absent. Nor is there any overall thrust, even.
So to-day we pose some questions about (or to) those clever pianists who play the most complex and unpredictable modern works:
a) are there many pianists who play from memory a work like this in which the usual cues and aids are for the most part lacking?
b) if so, what is it they actually recall - the notes as written on the page, or the actual sound of the music?
In less difficult and more traditional music it is almost always the actual sound, rather than the appearance of the written page, is it not?
Further examples, although perhaps not quite as difficult as the Stockhausen, are Boulez's three and Barraqué's one Sonatas.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #1 on: 11:11:58, 04-07-2007 » |
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[Context - Stockhausen Klavierstück VI]
a) are there many pianists who play from memory a work like this in which the usual cues and aids are for the most part lacking? Personally, not that piece from memory, but some others of a comparable level of complexity - though this particular Stockhausen one would be very hard to memorise. b) if so, what is it they actually recall - the notes as written on the page, or the actual sound of the music? In the case of memorising music old and new, for me it's often a combination of both, combined with a certain tactile memory, and knowledge of 'why' certain notes are there rather than others. In less difficult and more traditional music it is almost always the actual sound, rather than the appearance of the written page, is it not? Again it can be both. When all is said and done, what counts is what one produces in sound. |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #2 on: 11:28:08, 04-07-2007 » |
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In less difficult and more traditional music it is almost always the actual sound, rather than the appearance of the written page, is it not?
My piano teacher always used to talk about three different kinds of memory (hope I get this right): aural memory, finger memory and visual memory. She maintained that all three were vital if you were going to perform from memory. It might be interesting to ask Mieko Kanno these questions about her performance from memory of Ferneyhough's Intermedio alla Ciaccona. Boulez's three I would have thought that the third sonata, potentially, is even more complex than the Stockhausen because of the possibility of choice that arises from the score (reading the score takes a bit of brain work, let alone memorising it) |
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'is this all we can do?' anonymous student of the University of Berkeley, California quoted in H. Draper, 'The new student revolt' (New York: Grove Press, 1965) http://www.myspace.com/itensemble |
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #3 on: 11:37:18, 04-07-2007 » |
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Might I just mention 'muscle memory', a phenomenon known to dancers, singers and athletes amongst others? When a particular sequence of movements has been rehearsed or repeated often enough, the pattern seems to be set in the subconscious memory, to a point where the performer no longer has to concentrate completely on the physical progression from one movement to the next, but rather can concentrate on the interpretation at a different level of consciousness. People seem to have to have abilities in different areas here: it used to take me a huge amount of time to learn choreography, for example, but once it was in, it stayed in; with patter-songs, tongue-twisters and coloratura, the same seems to apply: it can only be done convincingly once it has become at least a semi-automatic action.
Rembering long stretches of complicated music seems to be a specific talent, though I've become convinced that musicians of my acquaintance either have brilliant sight-reading abilities or phenomenal memories, though relatively rarely both (and of course, sometimes neither), to the point where I believe that the two talents are to all intents and purposes virtually mutually exclusive.
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ahinton
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« Reply #4 on: 09:23:40, 05-07-2007 » |
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I'd like to ask Ian, as the seasoned performer of contemporary works that he is, what his views are about the actual necessity to perform music from memory. Obviously, no one expects any pianist, for example, to perform anything from the so-called "standard repertoire" other than from memory but, given that the kind of music alluded to in this thread and the kind that Ian often performs contains all manner of memorising problems, it would be interesting to hear his point of view on this. I suppose that it might be deemed acceptable to perform certain very complex music from the score initially and then maybe do it from memory at some future date, but I wonder about the expectations not of of the performer but of the listener in this regard.
Best,
Alistair
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #5 on: 09:32:55, 05-07-2007 » |
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I'd like to ask Ian, as the seasoned performer of contemporary works that he is, what his views are about the actual necessity to perform music from memory. Obviously, no one expects any pianist, for example, to perform anything from the so-called "standard repertoire" other than from memory but, given that the kind of music alluded to in this thread and the kind that Ian often performs contains all manner of memorising problems, it would be interesting to hear his point of view on this. I suppose that it might be deemed acceptable to perform certain very complex music from the score initially and then maybe do it from memory at some future date, but I wonder about the expectations not of of the performer but of the listener in this regard.
Quickly, as I'm on my way out - I don't necessarily think there need be any necessity to play music from any period from memory, and nowadays frequently use the score for older music to remove one level of tension. And there have been plenty of renowned performers who have done the same. |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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ahinton
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« Reply #6 on: 09:54:49, 05-07-2007 » |
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I'd like to ask Ian, as the seasoned performer of contemporary works that he is, what his views are about the actual necessity to perform music from memory. Obviously, no one expects any pianist, for example, to perform anything from the so-called "standard repertoire" other than from memory but, given that the kind of music alluded to in this thread and the kind that Ian often performs contains all manner of memorising problems, it would be interesting to hear his point of view on this. I suppose that it might be deemed acceptable to perform certain very complex music from the score initially and then maybe do it from memory at some future date, but I wonder about the expectations not of of the performer but of the listener in this regard.
Quickly, as I'm on my way out - I don't necessarily think there need be any necessity to play music from any period from memory, and nowadays frequently use the score for older music to remove one level of tension. And there have been plenty of renowned performers who have done the same. Interesting - and I have to admit that I'm pretty much in agreement with you about this (albeit not, of course, from your standpoint as a performer). Best, Alistair |
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aaron cassidy
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« Reply #7 on: 18:31:14, 05-07-2007 » |
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I gather, Ian, that you don't really ever set out to memoris/ze these works, right? In the case of, say, preparing a recital of more standard repertoire, dedicated memorization time is presumably part of the process (at least is historically), but you never planned to memorize something like Lemma-Icon-Epigram ... it just happened over the years as a result of playing it and studying it quite regularly (in which case you've also internalized the notation, as well?).
I'm quite interested in the notion that there are certain works (or, rather, certain notational approaches?) that preclude memorization. Presumably the degree of unpredictability in the relationship b/t score and sound plays an enormous role, here, much more so than the degree of notational information density or specificity. (So, it would be in many ways much easier (and appropriate) to memorize Lemma (or any of the examples Member Grew mentions) than it would, say, certain works of Wolff or Brown or Cage, or, for that matter, much of my own recent-ish work.)
I'd be interested, now that he's out of his e-hiding, what Member Sudden thinks of all of this.
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roslynmuse
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« Reply #8 on: 23:32:16, 05-07-2007 » |
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My belief, for what it's worth, is that the "playing from memory" phenomenon is more to do with music-as-showmanship than music. It doesn't bother me at all when I see a pianist (or anyone else) performing with a score. It disturbs me considerably more when I hear a bad performance - whether there's a score there or not.
In the end, I prefer listening to music to watching the act of performing it.
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autoharp
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« Reply #9 on: 10:10:52, 06-07-2007 » |
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My belief, for what it's worth, is that the "playing from memory" phenomenon is more to do with music-as-showmanship than music. It doesn't bother me at all when I see a pianist (or anyone else) performing with a score. It disturbs me considerably more when I hear a bad performance - whether there's a score there or not.
In the end, I prefer listening to music to watching the act of performing it.
Some pieces are easier to play by memory. Free from staring at dots, the mind can attend to other things. Some other pieces are pointless to memorize - it only makes life needlessly difficult. Not sure how much memory is to do with showmanship, though. Live performance - what about corporeality, r-m ? |
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roslynmuse
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« Reply #10 on: 10:30:48, 06-07-2007 » |
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My belief, for what it's worth, is that the "playing from memory" phenomenon is more to do with music-as-showmanship than music. It doesn't bother me at all when I see a pianist (or anyone else) performing with a score. It disturbs me considerably more when I hear a bad performance - whether there's a score there or not.
In the end, I prefer listening to music to watching the act of performing it.
Some pieces are easier to play by memory. Free from staring at dots, the mind can attend to other things. Some other pieces are pointless to memorize - it only makes life needlessly difficult. Not sure how much memory is to do with showmanship, though. Live performance - what about corporeality, r-m ? auto - not quite sure what you mean by corporeality. Re showmanship - I certainly have a sense that the "reason" memorising is pushed so much in Conservatoires - for pianists, at least - is that it "doesn't look good" to have the dots there; nothing about personal choice (which is fine - if you feel better not having a book in front of you, that is absolutely your right), but plenty about the nineteenth century conventions of recital giving. I also (whisper it) have a suspicion that quite a lot of pianists find it difficult to read a score and play at the same time... |
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #11 on: 10:56:25, 06-07-2007 » |
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There have been many interesting responses! . . . three different kinds of memory (hope I get this right): aural memory, finger memory and visual memory. She maintained that all three were vital if you were going to perform from memory. 1) We ourselves have experienced the importance of this tactility while learning rapid passages in Chopin's Studies and Liszt's Sonata but, how remarkable to learn that it comes to the aid also of the performer of Storkhausen's jagged and we should have thought almost entirely unpredictable rhythms! Two as yet unanswered but quite specific questions continue to trouble us: Personally, not that piece from memory, but some others of a comparable level of complexity - though this particular Stockhausen one would be very hard to memorise. 2) May we ask which comparable works specifically of which composer specifically the Member has memorised? 3) No one has yet pointed the Group to any pianist who is able to play Storkhausen's Sixth Piece from memory. If any Member knows of such a person may we (again specifically) be told his name? |
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #13 on: 12:53:21, 06-07-2007 » |
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2) May we ask which comparable works specifically of which composer specifically the Member has memorised? Well, I can play the Boulez Second Sonata or Ferneyhough Lemma-Icon-Epigram or Opus Contra Naturam from memory - only ever done so in concert with the first of the Ferneyhough pieces, though 3) No one has yet pointed the Group to any pianist who is able to play Storkhausen's Sixth Piece from memory. If any Member knows of such a person may we (again specifically) be told his name? I think Aloys Kontarsky, who played most things from memory, could probably do so with that Stockhausen piece - I don't know whether he did so or not, though. |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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martle
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« Reply #14 on: 18:30:09, 07-07-2007 » |
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I don't perform (piano) nearly as much as I used to, and others here a far more qualified to comment on this, as they have already. I suppose I find it quite easy to memorize pieces, of whatever style and/or level of complexity. (The more complex, admittedly, the longer it takes to learn!) But I made it a kind of rule for myself that if I can't play it from memory, I don't really know it well enough. Not at all saying this is, or should be, universally accepted or agreed with; it's just that, as autoharp says, getting your eyes off the dots liberates a bit more of your mind to concentrate on interpreting and projecting.
Also, I suppose I'm not that bothered about how it 'looks' in performance, but I find a performer who's not looking at a piece of sheet music has a better chance of 'communicating' with an audience - even pianists who admittedly aren't actually facing it, usually. It's certainly true, for me, of singers and melody instrumentalists.
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Green. Always green.
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