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Author Topic: Making money from composition?  (Read 1394 times)
roslynmuse
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« Reply #45 on: 21:33:47, 14-07-2007 »

Perhaps we need a separate "Public Schoolboy Guilt Competition" thread?

Anyone want to counter the idea, which seemed to be at least lurking in some comments earlier in the thread, that 'teaching' was somehow either unworthy for a proper rebellious creative artist, sapped creativity or was a dubious establishment perk that composers could pick up like a CBE or something to keep them from frightening the horses too much? In my innocence I would have thought teaching was something that was well worth doing in its own right and A GOOD THING in itself. And, looking at all this wholly from outside, it seems to me rather a good way (if only one among a number of ways) of squaring the circle of how to ensure that composers can earn a decent living (if they so choose) while still writing the music they want to write, and without the 'command economy' approach of handing down large grants directly to state approved composers - with all the tears before bedtime that entails. No? At least in the UK, as far as I can see though am ready to be corrected, we seem to manage it reasonably well without ending up with a separate species of 'academic music for other academics' (which does seem to me a real danger), don't we?

In principle, it's rather a good wheeze, isn't it, rather than something to be regretted? 

Back at the composition end of things: yes, George, on the whole it is a pretty good wheeze IMO. I remember hearing Michael Finnissy saying that composers had no place working in universities. Now, what's he doing these days? Oh... Anyway, this has sort of come up before, elsewhere; and I think some people may have been wary of the possibility of the creation of an 'academic' sub-species of composer - but I honestly don't think that's the case in this country, if one looks at the variety of styles and approaches of composers working in UK Unis and conservatoires. (It was probably true of the US years ago, but not any longer, I think. Interested to see what Aaron, Evan et al have to say on that.)
And yes, if you take the job seriously (as I hope I do), it can be fulfilling in its own right, and act as a stimulus not just to composing but to general intellectual and creative health, depending on the quality of your students.

Shame about the admin...
<retires and waits for roslynmuse to start ranting loudly>

Oh dear - so that is my reputation... Sad

However, I'm happy to oblige at any time, to order...  Wink

Fascinating thread, btw; nothing much to contribute on the subject itself beyond an observation that I have known a number of composers over the years - my teachers, my colleagues, my students, as well as my friends (subsets of the three former making up the latter) - they have followed many different styles, received respect/ admiration/ recognition in varying amounts, and none of them has made a living exclusively from composition. I can think of two who COULD; both work(ed) at the more - how shall I put it - approachable end of the serious/ art music spectrum (occasionally - or more frequently - at the point when I feel that neither words serious or art apply in any meaningful way, integrity having floated away like a dandelion clock in a summer breeze); but in each case what distinguishe[s/d] them from them more poverty-stricken colleagues is a sound (worldly-wise, reminding me of Alistair's acquaintance mocking at the honest burghers who find they actually have to pay tax when they have completed their tax returns...) business sense, an ability to fill a niche and to be seen to be an indispensable part of that niche.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #46 on: 21:52:28, 14-07-2007 »

And no, I'm not 'sneering'

Quote
You might do better here and elsewhere to actually contribute something (even something original) rather than the incredibly petty flames you like (maybe that's what public school/Cambridge teaches you? To stand in sanctimonious judgment as an alternative to ever having any real opinions or knowledge of your own?)

This I call sneering.
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perfect wagnerite
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« Reply #47 on: 22:32:51, 14-07-2007 »

It's one of private education's dirty little secrets that it costs the taxpayer far more to subsidise a pupil at Eton than it does to finance a state school pupil directly.

Something of a killer fact Shocked. Do you have, or know where I could find, the comparative figures, Perfect W?

The figures I have seen quoted for the Independent Schools as a whole is that they get tax breaks amounting to £88m a year. Divide that among their 440,000 pupils and that works out about £200 per pupil.

That's a lot (said he, speaking as one of the idiots who doesn't know how to avoid paying tax) and I can't myself see how it can really be justified but, even so, it can't possibly come near the cost to the taxpayer per state school place, can it?  How does the Eton statistic fit in with this? 


[A Non Public School boy, in case that helps give me street cred Cool ]

George,

I've heard the £88m figure too - I'm not quite sure how it is calculated but potentially the tax break per pupil is very much higher than the average per capita expenditure in state schools - especially if one takes account of the zero-rating of VAT.

I got involved in these issues when I was a governor (and Chair of Finance) of a primary school, and remember being shocked at how cheaply we are getting state education in the UK.  When I gave up being a governor, about four years ago, the average per capita income per pupil (in fact in accounting terms, schools here in Brighton  do not have pupils or students, but age-weighted pupil units) was about £1600.  It's higher in secondaries - a quick check on the budget for my daughter's school reveals funding in 2005-6 of just under £4m for 1600 pupils - an average of about £2500 each.  Brighton and Hove is quite a good example since its total level of funding is more or less dead average.

Annual school fees of £10,000 are not uncommon in the private sector - and school fees have risen considerably faster than inflation (and you may recall that there have been persistent allegations of price-fixing).  Covenanting for schools with charitable status allows those schools to reclaim income tax against those fees at the standard rate - so £2300 on our notional £10,000 fees.  On top of that, school fees are zero-rated for VAT - another £1750 in effective subsidy for parents, given that private organisations are not usually exempt from VAT in this way (public bodies are not usually required to levy VAT).  This of course won't figure in the £88m because it is tax revenue forgone from parents (although I'll bet there's someone counting it in the Treasury), rather than a tax break to the school.  So the taxpayer's contribution in total in our notional case is more than £4000.

Now of course not all parents covenant, and parents at independent schools might be more likely to have, shall we say, creative tax arrangement which make covenants irrelevant.  But even so, the average £200 figure seems intuitively rather low.
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At every one of these [classical] concerts in England you will find rows of weary people who are there, not because they really like classical music, but because they think they ought to like it. (Shaw, Don Juan in Hell)
richard barrett
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« Reply #48 on: 22:38:28, 14-07-2007 »

I've had a university post (my first) for just over a year, previous to which I'd spent most of my time attempting to live as an independent musician. (I had applied occasionally for teaching posts now and again over the years, but was not once even shortlisted.) Teaching is of course an important thing to be doing - up until last year I'd been working mainly with private students, so the fact that I'm now mostly involved in working on a one-to-one basis with doctoral students means that the teaching side of my activities hasn't really changed radically. Apart from that, what attracted me about abandoning the freelance life was the fact that, given that my post is principally concerned with "research", it created an opportunity for me to concentrate more on those aspects of what I do which fall outside the remit of most composer-commissioning systems but which I think are sufficiently important for me to put the necessary time and effort into developing and presenting. I think Martle said something along these lines before - working at a university gives one not only such an opportunity, but also a responsibility to put the resulting work out into the world, as far as one can.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #49 on: 22:57:02, 14-07-2007 »

And no, I'm not 'sneering'

Quote
You might do better here and elsewhere to actually contribute something (even something original) rather than the incredibly petty flames you like (maybe that's what public school/Cambridge teaches you? To stand in sanctimonious judgment as an alternative to ever having any real opinions or knowledge of your own?)

This I call sneering.

No, just an opinion (actually one that could be directed towards a lot of people that particular subset of the British education system throws up, those who take on its values wholescale).
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
thompson1780
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« Reply #50 on: 00:07:42, 15-07-2007 »

maybe that's what public school/Cambridge teaches you? To stand in sanctimonious judgment as an alternative to ever having any real opinions or knowledge of your own?).

I went to a Comprehensive and then to Cambridge, so I slouch sanctimoniously.

 Wink

Tommo
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SimonSagt!
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« Reply #51 on: 00:33:08, 15-07-2007 »

I've read some strange and surreal stuff on these MBs over the past few years, but this most fascinating thread takes the biscuit!

Fere libenter homines quod volunt credunt. What a pity prejudice and dogma so often blinds people to the facts!

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time_is_now
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« Reply #52 on: 09:56:45, 16-07-2007 »

Which composers ... have not been from at least moderately comfortable background
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and as such have not had to worry too much about making money from their work
I would try to answer the question, Ian, but I'm not sure whether you're asking for the less or more financially comfortable ones? - the two halves of your statement seem to contradict each other ...
I'm sure you know what I mean, despite a grammatical error - I'm thinking of the less financially comfortable ones who haven't had the second condition. You might do better here and elsewhere to actually contribute something (even something original) rather than the incredibly petty flames you like (maybe that's what public school/Cambridge teaches you? To stand in sanctimonious judgment as an alternative to ever having any real opinions or knowledge of your own?).
Ian,

I wasn't trying to be disruptive. Yes, I could guess what you meant, but it wasn't completely clear and I didn't see the harm in asking. For the record, I didn't actually go to public school, and I was perfectly capable of being pedantic long before I got to Cambridge.

I expect the discussion's moved on by now (I haven't logged on since Friday afternoon), but please would you explain why the fact that I went to Cambridge becomes relevant every time you think I'm having a go at you? I went there to get a good education, not to join some sort of club. You're right that there is a sort of old boys' network, but I never liked the look of it, being (to return to the theme of your original question) neither from a particularly comfortable background nor financially independent enough not to have to work for a living in a job I hate and do the writing about music that is important to me in what spare time I can find.
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increpatio
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« Reply #53 on: 16:51:21, 16-07-2007 »

It seems to me that it might be easier to list those who *were*/*are* able to make a living exclusively from their compositions. 

I can't think of any; maybe Grieg, once he got going.  Scriabin managed to get by for a certain period of his life thanks to the rather generous deal he had cut with his publisher (until he died).  Debussy and Tchaikovsky, and all their predecessors don't count, not having lived in the commercial world very much.
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