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Colin Holter
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« Reply #90 on: 14:32:08, 18-09-2007 »

I didn't say I "had to" discuss such matters at rehearsals, just that I've observed that the importance of dealing with the dynamics along with all the other information is sometimes ignored by performers, and this doesn't just apply to my own work: when performers have asked for my opinion regarding their interpretation of the work of other composers I've often found my first thoughts being that the dynamics aren't "there" in the way that pitches and rhythms might be.

In my own work the dynamics are as carefully and systematically (or not) composed as anything else, and in some senses and contexts are actually more important than "getting the notes right", which generally means getting the pitches right, as if a "note" consisted of a pitch with some other relatively ancillary information attached to it.

I've absolutely had to impress the importance of dynamics on performers; in fact, I think I do that every time I coach one of my pieces. I encounter the "pitch first" mentality too, and I often have to describe a sort of shifting priority-scheme for the piece whereby some parameters have to be "righter" than others at certain times, and at certain other times, other parameters have to be "righter." Sometimes pitches are more important than dynamics for me, sometimes vice versa; sometimes the profile of the gesture is more important than either. I'm not sure that this approach isn't counterproductive, though.

Obviously, it would be optimal to work with performers who can give all the aspects of the piece the necessary attention, but that's been pretty rare in my career to date.

By the way, I know this isn't the best place to make such an announcement, but there's a very short piece of mine that's receiving its premiere in New York tonight. . .  If anybody on the BBC radio 3 message board happens to be in Brooklyn, I'd encourage you to check it out.
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ahinton
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« Reply #91 on: 14:48:47, 18-09-2007 »

I didn't say I "had to" discuss such matters at rehearsals, just that I've observed that the importance of dealing with the dynamics along with all the other information is sometimes ignored by performers, and this doesn't just apply to my own work: when performers have asked for my opinion regarding their interpretation of the work of other composers I've often found my first thoughts being that the dynamics aren't "there" in the way that pitches and rhythms might be.

In my own work the dynamics are as carefully and systematically (or not) composed as anything else, and in some senses and contexts are actually more important than "getting the notes right", which generally means getting the pitches right, as if a "note" consisted of a pitch with some other relatively ancillary information attached to it.
Point/s taken!

Best,

Alistair
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stuart macrae
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« Reply #92 on: 15:24:28, 18-09-2007 »

I've absolutely had to impress the importance of dynamics on performers; in fact, I think I do that every time I coach one of my pieces. I encounter the "pitch first" mentality too, and I often have to describe a sort of shifting priority-scheme for the piece whereby some parameters have to be "righter" than others at certain times, and at certain other times, other parameters have to be "righter." Sometimes pitches are more important than dynamics for me, sometimes vice versa; sometimes the profile of the gesture is more important than either...

I think this is true even with my music, and I don't pay as much attention to dynamics as some others do. It can be difficult for the performer to tell which are the most important parameters at a given time - and sometimes I resort to telling them that the pitches are not as important as the speed of a phrase, or the dynamics, or the shape of the gesture, or whatever. At other times I have to insist on the pitches! But I've been fortunate enough to work with quite a number of musicians who seem to know intuitively (or perhaps rationally) what I'm getting at, and tailor their performance accordingly.

On the other hand, I doubt it if I've ever had a performance where every detail of pitch, rhythm and dynamics (as well as other parameters) has been realised exactly to my specifications, but deep down I'm a pragmatist and don't believe in being more fussy than is necessary to produce a musical performance (and I use that term deliberately, in the full knowledge that it has pejorative connotations for some...). I like the performer to take a personal approach to interpretation, and I've noticed that - at least with some performers and particularly with orchestras, where thinking as a group is the norm - the more detail there is in the score, the more detail gets left out, or smoothed out. And if different players in an ensemble happen to observe different details (which happens often due to insufficient rehearsal time) the performance can become grey, lacklustre and poorly integrated - and in the worst cases completely incoherent (who hasn't heard a few of those?).

Of course there are musicians who have the skill accurately to realise every notated parameter of the score, but I think those that can also bring personality and interpretative musicality (there's that word again!) are few and far between. And quite frankly I don't get asked to write for them, by and large! I'm much more likely to be writing for musicians who spend 90-99% of their time playing and learning older music, and who often say they don't have the time to learn really complex things, despite having an interest in performing new pieces. Of course, that's one of the reasons they decide to play my music - because it's not as complex as a lot of new music. (I'm not saying that's a virtue by the way, just the way it happens... Smiley )

And I frequently change dynamics in rehearsals if it occurs to me that something might work better another way...it's all about getting things the way you want them, isn't it?
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aaron cassidy
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« Reply #93 on: 15:26:27, 18-09-2007 »

I don't know if Richard or others have this problem, but I have a hell of a time trying to stop student composers 'throwing them on as a cosmetic afterthought', and that goes for articulation, bowing etc. as well. It takes a lot of effort (why?) to get across the idea that these parameters are every bit as integral to the profile and potentialities of the musical material as are pitch and rhythm, and can/should be worked at every bit as hard. The way I usually find works best is to demonstrate just how different a passage can sound when played at a radically different dynamic level from the one the student has automatically assumed, or to show how many different ways of, say, bowing a string passage there are. It's a compositional stimulus too: what if this bit was three times as loud/quiet, or spiky rather than smooth? What implications would that have for the future of this material in the piece, that are different from the ones you're currently imagining?

Indeed!  And your solution is the same one I've used.  I'll take a short passage from a student's work and have them rewrite the passage 6-7 different ways, w/ different dynamics/articulation/etc. in each, and they do indeed begin to realize that dynamics aren't something that's "added" to material, but in fact fundamentally change the identity of that material.  (This, in many, many ways, is directly linked to my earlier missive about the relationship b/t the physical and the sonic, at least in terms of "gestural" identities, btw.)

Incidentally, as a kind of pseudo-response to hh's blog post re the question of "systematizing" dynamics ... one of the things I've worked with over the last 6 yrs or so is systematizing sliding "ranges" of dynamics, rather than treating dynamics as absolute points (as in, say, 50s era serialism).  Instead, I map out both a "median" dynamic (which is itself generally sliding in one direction or other) and the degree of "dynamic heterogeneity."  What I'm giving myself in the end, then, is a kind of constantly sliding window of available dynamics (which, in a rather complicated way, are also interacting w/ similar constraints on gesture types, articulation types, etc.) that helps/forces me to think about the relationship b/t local-level dynamics (vis-a-vis "gesture") and larger-scale phrase shapes.


(And, like Richard, I spend lots of my energy in rehearsals w/ performers dealing w/ dynamics!  Probably more time on dynamics and articulation than anything else.)
« Last Edit: 15:31:36, 18-09-2007 by aaron cassidy » Logged
harmonyharmony
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« Reply #94 on: 15:33:33, 18-09-2007 »

I think (if I've understood you correctly) that I've been messing around with the same sort of thing lately.

Regarding everything to do with students and dynamics, I've noticed that in a lot of institutions there is a tendency to encourage student composers to treat workshops as performances (i.e. to submit complete works) rather than as opportunities to learn from performers.
I think it would also help if the students knew a little of what to expect before the session as well. I think that getting them to prepare passages in different ways is excellent and would really bring home the possibilities of the session.
I could go on about my workshop bugbears, but maybe not today!
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'is this all we can do?'
anonymous student of the University of Berkeley, California quoted in H. Draper, 'The new student revolt' (New York: Grove Press, 1965)
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #95 on: 15:38:16, 18-09-2007 »

I sometimes do something similar in composer workshops, where composers have not put many details in, showing them how their music would sound if played with this or that set of dynamics, articulations, tempo, pedalling, etc., etc. Often they are very surprised (usually imagining simply that the performer 'knows what they mean' - they may do, and I can often guess, but (a) they shouldn't take that for granted when performers come from very different stylistic traditions (and some are more flexible than others in that respect) and (b) they are overlooking the creative possibilities of these parameters, as martle says.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
increpatio
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« Reply #96 on: 15:06:13, 19-09-2007 »

One reason I would posit why students aren't so explicit when it comes to dynamics is that in Sibelius it's a bit of a pain Wink  Sibelius puts in the notes for one just fine but as soon as one requires dynamical markings one finds unself rather alone in the world, dragging staves apart to make room for hairpins and never being sure if what you're writing is an indication of "expression" or "technique".  Or maybe it's just me.  I usually find myself scribbling most of my dynamic markings on the printed-out scores afterwards from the original manuscripts.
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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #97 on: 15:17:24, 19-09-2007 »

Here's the first page of complex stuff.
I might post some more as I do it if anyone would like to see more than this!

(click to see it larger)



Any comments gratefully received, but be gentle: it's my viva tomorrow.
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'is this all we can do?'
anonymous student of the University of Berkeley, California quoted in H. Draper, 'The new student revolt' (New York: Grove Press, 1965)
http://www.myspace.com/itensemble
increpatio
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« Reply #98 on: 15:34:01, 19-09-2007 »

Here's the first page of complex stuff.
I might post some more as I do it if anyone would like to see more than this!

(click to see it larger)



Any comments gratefully received, but be gentle: it's my viva tomorrow.

I see a hairpin intersect a p in the clarinet line, first bar. 

How do you work with quartertones?  (different people have very different philosophies when dealing with them, as they do with normal notes, I imagine).  I mean, do you treat them in terms of their sound, or do you have some methods for dealing with them?.
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time_is_now
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« Reply #99 on: 15:55:25, 19-09-2007 »

On a brief glance, hh: looks good. I assume your 'ob' with small-font 'ca', 'pic' with small 'fl' etc. are to remind what doublings are used elsewhere in the piece - this seems a good system if so, though I've never seen it before. The problem it seems designed to address has often troubled me in larger orchestral scores, where you can end up leafing through pages and pages just to find out which of the 3 flautists is actually playing that piccolo on p. 73, or whatever.

I'm not really an editor, just a vaguely intelligent pedant, but (especially in the light of our recent discussions about dynamics/phrasing) wondered if it might be worth keeping the cello's first D natural in the bass clef and then switching to the tenor clef before the F, just so that the crescendo doesn't cut across a change of clef?
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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #100 on: 16:03:35, 19-09-2007 »

On a brief glance, hh: looks good. I assume your 'ob' with small-font 'ca', 'pic' with small 'fl' etc. are to remind what doublings are used elsewhere in the piece - this seems a good system if so, though I've never seen it before. The problem it seems designed to address has often troubled me in larger orchestral scores, where you can end up leafing through pages and pages just to find out which of the 3 flautists is actually playing that piccolo on p. 73, or whatever.

I'm not really an editor, just a vaguely intelligent pedant, but (especially in the light of our recent discussions about dynamics/phrasing) wondered if it might be worth keeping the cello's first D natural in the bass clef and then switching to the tenor clef before the F, just so that the crescendo doesn't cut across a change of clef?
Or (possibly) more importantly so that the phrase doesn't cut across a change of clef.
The doubling indication is a variant on Richard's practice in Temptation (? I saw it in Toop's article on the Four Facets). Just using underlining (which Richard uses) didn't make it clear enough for my purposes so using the smaller font helped.

incre- thanks for spotting that problem in the clarinet part (and I'll need to fiddle a bit more with things as they are).
I'll come back to quartertones later. Got to go into town before the shops shut.
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'is this all we can do?'
anonymous student of the University of Berkeley, California quoted in H. Draper, 'The new student revolt' (New York: Grove Press, 1965)
http://www.myspace.com/itensemble
harmonyharmony
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« Reply #101 on: 20:21:56, 19-09-2007 »

How do you work with quartertones?  (different people have very different philosophies when dealing with them, as they do with normal notes, I imagine).  I mean, do you treat them in terms of their sound, or do you have some methods for dealing with them?.
Not sure I completely understand what you're asking here.
I spent a long time sitting in a studio listening to microtones until I was score-reading sixth-tones and eighth-tones (I've lost the eighth-tone reading ability except for apparently after a skinful of whisky, and the sixth-tone thing seems to have really gone - I'll have to get that back for a piece that needs to be finished). I'm still happy reading quarter-tones, though as you can see from the score it's a canon without a distinctive subject, so that the texture is kind of like an excerpt from micropolyphony, so hearing the quartertones as distinct individual sonic objects is already problematic.

But the way I generate pitches isn't exactly down to 'hear it in my head, write it on the page' but the ability to hear the pitches is extremely important for recognising acceptable material when it starts to emerge.
Does that answer the question?
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'is this all we can do?'
anonymous student of the University of Berkeley, California quoted in H. Draper, 'The new student revolt' (New York: Grove Press, 1965)
http://www.myspace.com/itensemble
TimR-J
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« Reply #102 on: 14:46:55, 20-09-2007 »

it's my viva tomorrow.

Just spotted this, hh - hope it went well!
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increpatio
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« Reply #103 on: 15:55:39, 20-09-2007 »

Quote
But the way I generate pitches isn't exactly down to 'hear it in my head, write it on the page' but the ability to hear the pitches is extremely important for recognising acceptable material when it starts to emerge.
Does that answer the question?

Yes.  I guess I was wondering in particular if you had any purely theoretical motivations for dealing with microtones, or if you were going for a more "hands-on" approach, but also generally wanted to leave the topic open enough that you might happen to say other interesting things.

Hope your viva went okay.
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Biroc
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« Reply #104 on: 23:43:01, 23-09-2007 »

Quote
But the way I generate pitches isn't exactly down to 'hear it in my head, write it on the page' but the ability to hear the pitches is extremely important for recognising acceptable material when it starts to emerge.
Does that answer the question?

Yes.  I guess I was wondering in particular if you had any purely theoretical motivations for dealing with microtones, or if you were going for a more "hands-on" approach, but also generally wanted to leave the topic open enough that you might happen to say other interesting things.

Hope your viva went okay.

Not sure it's my place, but I can say that it did indeed go rather well...congrats hh!!! Grin
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