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oliver sudden
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« Reply #30 on: 22:02:03, 27-07-2007 » |
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(I've started an "'Authenticity' in the orchestra?" thread over on Making Music and replied to this over there.)
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richard barrett
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« Reply #31 on: 22:20:23, 27-07-2007 » |
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I do think the cimbasso has a lot of potential there in that the tuba in many orchestras is rather woofy and doesn't always blend with the bitier trombones. Although it might be opined that it isn't supposed to, being a woofy tuba. But obviously a cimbasso should be used in music where it would originally have been used. Actually the combination of tuba and cimbasso (or contrabass trombone, probably a little more common) might be interesting. I'll note that down. |
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #32 on: 22:23:05, 27-07-2007 » |
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being a woofy tuba
Well, there are woofier and less woofy tubas. The ones most orchestral players use are pretty lush! |
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #33 on: 22:48:20, 27-07-2007 » |
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The cornet is ultimately a bandsman's instrument, and tends to be in Bb "because most band instruments are". To this extent it's really something of an interloper in the orchestra, although an interloper with a fine historical pedigree  I have seen modern C-cornets, but not any older ones. Arban's famous "Methode" for the cornet-a-pistons is testament to the prowess of C19th players, and - interestingly - remains the staple "etude" material for trumpeters today. There were also Eb instruments (a 4th higher than standard), but I think they were confined to bandstand use... I'm not aware of orchestral repertoire for Eb cornets? There was also the "Echo Cornet", basically a standard instrument but equipped with a second bell that doesn't flare - a rotor operated the "toggle" between the two. Once again, this was largely a bandstand instrument for soloists, and I don't know of any orchestral passages for it - but markings for these may have become lost over the years as trumpets came into vogue? One can quickly imagine situations in which it might have been useful, especially for "off-stage" effects. (BTW I seem to remember that the score of RIENZI specifies cornets too, so it's not purely a French/Italian thing). "Soprano" players in bands these days seem to favour a souped-up Bb instrument with a tiny bore and a "screamer" mouthpiece, and the parts come transposed for a Bb instrument, not Eb (which seems to have disappeared entirely). Fair point indeed about "historic" instruments in Donizetti etc, but considering that his works are almost never played like that... are we looking at bassons again here, or the German instrument? About valve trombones vs bass trumpets, the instrument I am thinking of is this:  and its manufacturer calls it a valve trombone  The bass trumpet is a different beast and looks visually like a conventional trumpet. Although trombonists are found playing it, trumpeters often play it too - Philip Jones used to play all the RING parts for it at the ROH.  I know what you mean about tubas sounding a bit "woofy" and uncentred... this brings us back to a discussion we had at TOP about ophicleides, an instrument currently championed most prominently by your fellow-countrymen Which oddly-enough leads us back to "bassoons" where we started, only in this case... the "Russian bassoon"  Stick that thing on the bottom brass line in the MAZEPPA overture! Sadly I've never heard one in orchestral use, just parped-on in lectures by way of demonstration. |
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
- Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
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Tony Watson
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« Reply #34 on: 22:51:50, 27-07-2007 » |
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I was listening for the first time to Stravinsky's Threni this afternoon - the 1959 recording with the Columbia Symphony Orchestra conducted by the composer. There are some very impressive low notes early on and I wondered whether I was listening to a contrabassoon or a contrabass sarrusophone (or something else?). I know that Stravinsky specified the sarrusophone but would he have been happy with the double bassoon, bearing in mind it was just one year after he had written it?
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« Last Edit: 22:55:30, 27-07-2007 by Tony Watson »
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #35 on: 23:02:48, 27-07-2007 » |
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About valve trombones vs bass trumpets, the instrument I am thinking of is this: and its manufacturer calls it a valve trombone Indeed - that's the sort I've never seen up close; closest thing I've seen to it is the bass trumpet played by a trombonist (Wagner, Ferneyhough, Stravinsky, Birtwistle...). I have a feeling that the cornet reached its reasonably fully mechanised state a little earlier than the trumpet, which might be why the two are found together in the early/mid-19th century - certainly in the Symphonie Fantastique the cornet parts are, well, cornet parts (the obbligato in Le Bal was apparently written for Arban) and the trumpet parts are for natural trumpets. Of course later on it's purely a tone-colour thing (allegedly the cornet has a basically conical bore, the trumpet cylindrical) - as for example with Debussy and, would you believe: Messiaen! (Turangalîla.) |
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #36 on: 23:11:30, 27-07-2007 » |
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I was listening for the first time to Stravinsky's Threni this afternoon - the 1959 recording with the Columbia Symphony Orchestra conducted by the composer. There are some very impressive low notes early on and I wondered whether I was listening to a contrabassoon or a contrabass sarrusophone (or something else?). I know that Stravinsky specified the sarrusophone but would he have been happy with the double bassoon, bearing in mind it was just one year after he had written it?
Certainly sounds like a contrabassoon although I don't know exactly what a sarrusophone sounds like! Must have a look at the score - maybe it's optional? If he didn't have one for the recording perhaps he didn't have one for the premiere either and perhaps if he didn't have one for the premiere it was one of those composerly caprices... |
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Evan Johnson
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« Reply #37 on: 23:25:48, 27-07-2007 » |
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I was listening for the first time to Stravinsky's Threni this afternoon - the 1959 recording with the Columbia Symphony Orchestra conducted by the composer. There are some very impressive low notes early on and I wondered whether I was listening to a contrabassoon or a contrabass sarrusophone (or something else?). I know that Stravinsky specified the sarrusophone but would he have been happy with the double bassoon, bearing in mind it was just one year after he had written it?
Certainly sounds like a contrabassoon although I don't know exactly what a sarrusophone sounds like! Must have a look at the score - maybe it's optional? If he didn't have one for the recording perhaps he didn't have one for the premiere either and perhaps if he didn't have one for the premiere it was one of those composerly caprices... The score specifies only "sarrusophone," sounding 8vb. I've heard that recording but not recently, so can't be of any use for aural identification; but there's no "official" written sanctioning of alternatives! |
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #38 on: 23:30:33, 27-07-2007 » |
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So does anyone here actually know for certain what a sarrusophone sounds like?  Here's another contrabass double reed instrument:  http://www.eppelsheim.com/kontraforte.php?lang=enThe [k/c]ontraforte, the work of Benedikt Eppelsheim and Guntram Wolf. A lot of orchestras have them now. I heard one in Melbourne a while ago in El Salón Mexico. If anything it was a bit too loud... |
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« Last Edit: 23:32:38, 27-07-2007 by oliver sudden »
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #39 on: 23:36:07, 27-07-2007 » |
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I have a feeling that the cornet reached its reasonably fully mechanised state a little earlier than the trumpet, which might be why the two are found together in the early/mid-19th century I'm sure that's absolutely true. The earliest cornets (excluding maybe prototypes) were two-valve jobbies (I think rotary valves came later), leaving some "gaps" in the range in the first octave. (the third valve has always been a bit unstable with intonation, and needs finger-correction with a sliding valve on even the best modern trumpets today. Probably someone who is an acoustician could tell us why - it's obviously connected with overblown harmonics somehow?). An Italian player once told me that in Italy the Guild Trumpeters clung to their positions and refused any alteration to the instrument - trumpeters were the retinue of noblemen, and could afford to bite their thumbs at humble Stadtpfeiferen (or whatever town bandsmen were called in Italy). So it was the cornet-players - mostly using home-brew alterations they'd devised themselves - who led the way on mechanisation, and got the last laugh Brass players seem to continue to fix, repair and even construct their own instruments - Michael Laird made all his own clarino trumpets, and the various medieval slide-trumpets he played with David Munrow etc. Curses, the thread's drifted back again! Time for bed, early flight tomorrow morning PS Ollie, the Contrabass Sarrusophone in the Museum of Musical Instruments in St Petersburg is equipped with a single-reed mouthpiece - so it falls under your purview The mouthpiece clearly belonged to the instrument in question, rather than being glued-on by some well-meaning museum curator for the sake of visual completeness. Wikipedia notes that some of the later Sarrusophones moved-over to single-reed and were even manufactured thus... |
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
- Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #40 on: 23:46:23, 27-07-2007 » |
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Looking at the very detailed notes for the Craft recording of Threni in the old Koch issue (KIC-CD-7514), the presence of the unusual instruments in the score (flügelhorn, alto trombone, 'three kinds of clarinet and sarrusophone) is not only mentioned specifically, and their particular sonic effects noted, but even more helpfully, an excerpt from a review of the first performance and the preceeding rehearsal by the poet Eugenio Montale states "...The make-up of the orchestra is complex and rich in little-used instruments..." which translation I'm assuming to mean 'rare in general' rather than 'making only occasional contributions to the piece'. The première was very much a prestige event and had had a huge amount of trouble spent on it: the Hamburg Radio Chorus had had twenty rehearsals with Robert Craft before the first night, for example. I find it difficult to believe that if that care was being exercised, all the specified instruments would not have been made available too. The sarrusophone must have been there for the first performance.
I'll bet it was there for the recording, too: when Craft made the (CBS) recordings of the one-and-a-half earlier versions of Svadebka/Les Noces with their weird demands for cimbalom, player pianos, etc., everything was supplied: sadly these recordings only had a very limited release on an Italian CBS LP, and have never reappeared. But that's another story....
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #41 on: 23:47:09, 27-07-2007 » |
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(the third valve has always been a bit unstable with intonation, and needs finger-correction with a sliding valve on even the best modern trumpets today. Probably someone who is an acoustician could tell us why - it's obviously connected with overblown harmonics somehow?). I suspect it's not that complicated - I understood it's actually just because when the other valves are down the third valve is no longer adding the same proportion to what is now a longer tube. So you need to add some extra tubing in the form of the slide. PS Ollie, the Contrabass Sarrusophone in the Museum of Musical Instruments in St Petersburg is equipped with a single-reed mouthpiece - so it falls under your purview So when are we planning the heist? The mouthpiece clearly belonged to the instrument in question, rather than being glued-on by some well-meaning museum curator for the sake of visual completeness. Wikipedia notes that some of the later Sarrusophones moved-over to single-reed and were even manufactured thus... Sidney Bechet played one on a 1924 track, the ever-reliable Wikipedia tells me. |
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Notoriously Bombastic
Posts: 181
Never smile at the brass
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« Reply #42 on: 01:20:48, 28-07-2007 » |
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Is it that predictable that I'd jump into a brass thread? Stream of consiousness time - Eb cornet is certainly not obsolete - there is one (and only one) in every brass band. Have a listen to Pete Roberts and Kevin Crockford with Dyke and Grimeys tomorrow respectively, both superb players. Interestingly (hm) enough, the Berlioz orchestration textbook refers to Eb cornets at the low octave, ie tenor horn pitch. Probably sounded a bit muddy. Cornets/Trumpets - the division has continued in wind bands of various types, from military to symphonic. Typically three or four cornets play either as a harmonic wodge or as solo cornet, and two trumpets are scored similarly to orchestral trumpets. There may be some Sarrousaphone recordings at www.contrabass.com I once heard that in the trumpet guilds, your rank in the guild determined which notes you were able to play. Can anybody confirm or deny? Valve trombones were used a lot in Europe - example are Verdi (chromatic scales in the Requiem). Dvorak (semiquavers in the finale of the 8th symphony), Janacek (Sinfonietta). Still, the slide instrument sounds much better, and we all like a challenge! Cimbasso. Oh dear, a can of worms for nomelclature... I've heard a theory that it is actually a corruption of 'C. basso' and a 'cimbasso' never actually existed. The written range is rather small, and suggests a very small bore tuba, possibly in F. These days people tend to use a valve contrabass trombone in F, which blends better with the trombones than a tuba. If you read the standard (or possibly even old) orchestration textbooks such as the Forsythe, people have been concerned about the blend of trombone/tuba tone colours for quite some time. The example always given is the end of the first movement of Tchaik 6. I sometimes wonder what a section of three or four trombones, euphonium and bass tuba would sound like. Strauss twice scored for it, and Henry Wood used the scoring at least once (Sea Songs) Richard, you might be interested in the way the trombones and tuba work in Gurrelieder. Alto, four tenor/bass, Eb bass and contrabass trombones used in various combinations. Reiner, just too add to Ollie's explanation - It might be easier to demonstrate this on trombone than trumpet. On (Bb) bass trombone, I have seven slide positions. Using the first plug I have six positions on an F trombone. With both plugs, I have five positions on a D trombone. Putting two valves down on a trumpet without attempting to correct the tuning would be similar to using the normal slide positions on the plug (although the intervals are different) Burying a question for Ollie, I was talking to a clarinetist in the pub on Thursday (Adnams was involved) about tuning, and wondered if when you overblow at the 12th the notes are noticably sharp? NB |
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richard barrett
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« Reply #43 on: 10:18:40, 28-07-2007 » |
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Richard, you might be interested in the way the trombones and tuba work in Gurrelieder. Alto, four tenor/bass, Eb bass and contrabass trombones used in various combinations. Oh yes, thanks, I'd forgotten about Gurrelieder, although I've always had the feeling that there are always one or two things too many going on in that score relative to the kind of material it uses, the result sounding more confused than multilayered, and I don't believe that orchestras commissioning new works generally offer a Gurrelieder-type lineup  Regarding your comments on the cimbasso, would I be right in inferring that no examples of the putative instrument from 19th centuiry Italy actually survive? I thought a cimbasso WAS a valved contrabass trombone in F. At least the only one I've seen and heard was. But maybe it wasn't really a cimbasso. |
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #44 on: 11:10:02, 28-07-2007 » |
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NB, wherever I see NB I expect something more to follow for some reason - I suppose I'll get over it. Valve trombones were used a lot in Europe - example are Verdi (chromatic scales in the Requiem). Dvorak (semiquavers in the finale of the 8th symphony), Janacek (Sinfonietta). Still, the slide instrument sounds much better, and we all like a challenge! Isn't there a Chavez trio where he specifies for the trombone part that it must be a slide trombone? Richard I think you were wondering about the Sinfonietta part at some point - that looks like an answer. Clarinet 12ths are a can of worms. It's not to do with the harmonic-series 12th being larger than equal-tempered though, rather with the inharmonicity of the situation: what with it being the real world and all, the tuning of the 12ths is affected by complications such as the flare of the bore (although it's theoretically cylindrical it does often widen a little along its length even before the bell; I believe the bore of my 'normal' clarinets is what's called polycylindrical), the positioning of the register key hole (theoretically, to work perfectly it would have to be in a different place for every note), the fact that the hole's there at all (if you overblow without the key the note's lower), all that sort of thing. And then there's the fact that on the vast majority of clarinets that hole's also used for throat Bb - no wonder that note's a bit dodgy, but for some reason a mechanism to fix it hasn't caught on for the normal clarinets. I wouldn't mind reading this paper some day: http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=16541335 |
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