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Author Topic: Issues of music and commodification on the cover of Weekly Worker  (Read 6326 times)
ahinton
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« Reply #60 on: 16:36:29, 04-08-2007 »

All the composers in question still had to deal with the overall situation conditioning the production of their work, if they were not to exist in total obscurity (a fate that of course did befall various Soviet composers, including Mosolov in later years). And what they did write was affected by that (as well as the fact that their whole consciousness was sure to have been affected by the experience of growing up and living in that society, which itself would have affected their creative outpourings, unless one thinks such things are entirely independent (which would make composition into an extremely impersonal activity)). The same is true of composers working in capitalist societies, which bring simply a different set of conditions upon musical production, and a different set of experiences and forms of subjectivity. No-one is free from that.
There is indeed truth in what you write here, but I still cannot help but be mindful of the difference between what happens to composers and their work in countries governed by régimes whose activites have specifically included brute force, fear-mongering and coercion against them and what happens to those that function in what you call "capitalist societies" (and there are many different forms of those in any case).

One might also ask (as some have) whether some of these Soviet composers would have been promoted in the West in the same way (including recently) if there were not people trying to make cultural and political capital out of the presentation of 'martyrs to a system'?
It's a good question, though one to which I'm by no means sure I have the answer - in fact, the nearest I can get to an answer is that it would very considerably from composer to composer in any case.

If we didn't have all that subtext with Shostakovich, would his work really be perceived in the same way?
I don't know about the "same" way, but I do think that his position would have remained assured regardless of any such portrayal, especially as he had pretty much established himself on the international scene well before the excrement began to collide with the air-conditioning in the Russia of the mid-1930s; even Schönberg praised his work as a symphonist (albeit somehat later on).

Best,

Alistair
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George Garnett
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« Reply #61 on: 18:26:17, 04-08-2007 »

Meanwhile, we continue to promote Efrem Podgaits, Elena Aghbalyants, Irina Belova, Mikhail Bronner, Rim Khasanov...   unappreciated in their own country, unwanted anywhere else.

Re Efrem Podgaits, we did get the high profile premiere of his Symphony No 2 in London in 2005. It was high profile in the sense that it was the LSO conducted by Rostropovich and it was programmed alongside Vengerov playing the Beethoven concerto so it got a guaranteed full house. Now, you know me, I try to see good in everything but I must say it seemed very poor stuff to me. I kept telling myself, now come on, if this is good enough for Rostropovich, it really ought to to be good enough for you. But I'm afraid that didn't work. Wasn't impressed at all, I'm afraid - and I'd no idea whether he was pro or anti Putin so that didn't come into the reckoning.     

I should add that it is the only piece of his that I have heard so I don't know how typical it was.
« Last Edit: 11:30:34, 18-08-2007 by George Garnett » Logged
Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #62 on: 19:58:08, 04-08-2007 »

I'm afraid I haven't heard Podgaits's Symph No #2, George, so you have the advantage on me there.  I recently heard his new opera LORD OF THE FLIES, and I'm afraid it left me cold...   I think his work can indeed be variable.   The Tryptych mentioned above is a worthy work, and so are his String Quartets.   I have no idea which way he swings politically - I've never discussed politics with him. 

It's a funny old business in which little seems certain...  I know Belova well enough to know where she stands politically, and she is certainly no supporter of current Kremlin politics.  However, with no apparently indication as to why, she was suddenly summoned to Moscow (from her native Siberian city of Krasnoyarsk) last year, and given a Silver Dove Award for Oustanding Achievement in Classical Music by Putin in person.  "This means I'll be dropped like a stone abroad" she mused ruefully afterwards, "but I can't afford to decline it either".  However, she's still Composer In Residence with the Stockholm Saxophone 4tet so far...

Back to DSCH's contemporaries and Ian's point, though...  it always seems to me that Prokofiev somehow "fell from grace" with the Western establishment after taking Stalin's shilling and returning home?
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calum da jazbo
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« Reply #63 on: 22:57:27, 04-08-2007 »

might i pose a question?
is becoming a composer an inevitable choice for the individual who does so? is it an irreducible personal committment?

if so, would this in itself have an effect on the aesthetic and methodology adopted, some congruence with an organismic/personological ethos being implied? i intend no simple biological reduction here, at some point in life an identity crystallizes, and this seems to me to be a quite mysterious process. it is such an act of individual courage to pursue such a 'vocation'.
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increpatio
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« Reply #64 on: 00:46:23, 05-08-2007 »

Oh. I am in the west of Ireland at the moment, so just popping by to say that I find myself in agreement with Alistair and Ian.  I remember, when reading them the first time, thinking I should pop in a quote by van Dieren, where he said something rather silly along the lines of "The only reason Palestrina didn't write music like Wagner's was because he didn't want to" Wink (but I can't think off hand, and after a quick glance through this thread in respond to what exactly).

(Oh, and my comment about Schoenberg, was just saying something like "The music of schoenberg's later period would have been as difficult, if not more difficult, for people born into the romantic music tradition to really accept, than for people coming with cleaner minds"; though I maybe wasn't taking myself too seriously when I said it...).

might i pose a question?
is becoming a composer an inevitable choice for the individual who does so?

I, though not a composer, would anwer, in the most reasonable way I can interpret this question, "no more than any other choice" (suitably interpreted).

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is it an irreducible personal committment?

Eh?
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calum da jazbo
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« Reply #65 on: 21:48:53, 05-08-2007 »

"Eh?"

Some choices stem from others, can choosing to be a composer stem only from itself? Presumably, even when blowing thru bones with holes in, some bright spark was initiating repeatable ensemble pieces or defining the basis of choice in improvisation.

It is simply that so much of the above discussion address societal and political issues. I am interested in what a person brings to music from the 'inside', uninfluenced by social or cultural forces. How else do we recognise the stamp of their music within a few notes, or seconds for those who use such an approach?

if we say that a composer lets us see something new, and that is her gift, what makes it particularly hers?
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #66 on: 21:54:57, 05-08-2007 »

I am interested in what a person brings to music from the 'inside', uninfluenced by social or cultural forces.
That assumes that such an 'inside' is itself uninfluenced by social or cultural forces, which is unlikely to be true for anyone other than a hermit.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
ahinton
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« Reply #67 on: 22:03:20, 05-08-2007 »

I am interested in what a person brings to music from the 'inside', uninfluenced by social or cultural forces.
That assumes that such an 'inside' is itself uninfluenced by social or cultural forces, which is unlikely to be true for anyone other than a hermit.
Indeed so - yet the questions that arise here, it seems to me, are (a) to what extent might such an "inside" be so influenced and how in any case can one derive particular and unequivocal conclusions about this from the specifics of the composer's music? and (b) is there not a certain degree of hermetic activity built into the very act of composition, which is almost invariably something that has to be undertaken in private and away from any immediately obvious presence of any such "social and cultural forces"? I am not, of course, suggesting that no social or cultural forces can ever affect the way in which some composers might compose; once again, I merely observe that the specifics of the consequences of such influences, where they occur, are virtually impossible to pinpoint, analyse and form meaningful and incontrovertible conclusions about (said he, ending a sentence with a preposition)...

Best,

Alistair
« Last Edit: 07:09:37, 06-08-2007 by ahinton » Logged
aaron cassidy
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« Reply #68 on: 04:56:51, 06-08-2007 »

might i pose a question?
is becoming a composer an inevitable choice for the individual who does so? is it an irreducible personal committment?

It's perhaps an odd distinction, but I'd suggest that there's a small but significant difference b/t one who writes music and one who identifies him/herself as a composer.  I'm treading on thin ice here, but I think probably there are certain predispositions to writing music, no different than there are predispositions to playing music or making films or taking pictures or painting or being great at math(s) or whatnot.  But to actually make the decision to make a career (such as it is) as a composer (or artist or mathematician ...) is indeed largely a conscious choice.

I've been writing in one form or another since I was 8, and whether or not I'd gone on to study composition and then take a stab at building a body of work as a composer, I'd probably still be writing.  But -- perhaps other composers here will disagree -- something changed significantly for me once I started calling myself a composer.  It becomes part of an identity, and perhaps most crucially, it sets certain priorities in my life.  It has, for example, allowed me to battle through some stretches of unemployment, encouraging me to push through and find time to write, even when a more reasonable option would be to find a proper 8-5 job.

But to answer your question ... no, it's not an inevitable choice, but it is indeed a choice.

I'd imagine, for example, that folks like Ian or Ollie would still be involved as musicians in some way or another (perhaps even at a reasonably high level), but making the choice to pursue careers as performers has allowed them to not only find a certain degree of focus and commitment to their work but also to battle through the more challenging times, when attempting to make a career as a performer seems an unreasonable or fruitless pursuit.

« Last Edit: 04:58:33, 06-08-2007 by aaron cassidy » Logged
oliver sudden
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« Reply #69 on: 10:09:31, 07-08-2007 »

I'd imagine, for example, that folks like Ian or Ollie would still be involved as musicians in some way or another (perhaps even at a reasonably high level), but making the choice to pursue careers as performers has allowed them to not only find a certain degree of focus and commitment to their work but also to battle through the more challenging times, when attempting to make a career as a performer seems an unreasonable or fruitless pursuit.
Up to a point, that's certainly true. A couple of details are different though. It wasn't clear to me until I was about 17 that music was what I wanted to focus on; and then I don't remember actually making a decision on the matter, rather that it was clear to me one day that that was how it was (and certainly as a performer: none of the other options entered my head).

But having identified myself as a performer, yes, that allowed performance to remain the focus even when I wouldn't be doing any serious playing in concert (or even sometimes picking up a clarinet at all) for months at a time.

Oddly enough that can also bring its own difficulties now that for the time being performance is indeed my almost exclusive activity; simply because not all of my colleagues make that same identification and their attitude to our day-to-day activity is different in ways that can cause friction. But it's not always possible (or desirable! Wink) to bear that in mind...
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quartertone
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« Reply #70 on: 22:57:03, 09-08-2007 »

might i pose a question?
is becoming a composer an inevitable choice for the individual who does so? is it an irreducible personal committment?

It's perhaps an odd distinction, but I'd suggest that there's a small but significant difference b/t one who writes music and one who identifies him/herself as a composer.  I'm treading on thin ice here, but I think probably there are certain predispositions to writing music, no different than there are predispositions to playing music or making films or taking pictures or painting or being great at math(s) or whatnot.  But to actually make the decision to make a career (such as it is) as a composer (or artist or mathematician ...) is indeed largely a conscious choice.

That's a very good point. Furthermore, the choice to become an artist usually incorporates a sense of what aesthetic, and thus also commercial direction one will be going in. That's not to say one has more chance of success as a neo-symphonist or film composer, just that the work has a much greater market value than avant-garde music IF they do have some success. The choice to pursue an avant-garde/modernist/obscure musical direction is also the choice to pursue a career that, in material terms, can hardly be considered a profession; one can be grateful to at least have a secure teaching career, but is extremely unlikely to be able to live off commissions when one's pieces are generally played to audiences of 20-100 people. That makes it a rather different choice than the intention to become a banker, a lawyer or a doctor, for example. Being 'a composer' is more and less than a job.
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aaron cassidy
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« Reply #71 on: 23:04:07, 09-08-2007 »

(nice to see you back here, qt.  it's been awhile!)
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #72 on: 20:40:09, 03-09-2007 »

The debate continues - http://www.cpgb.org.uk/worker/686/letters.htm
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
ahinton
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« Reply #73 on: 21:19:08, 03-09-2007 »

Does it? Well, something certainly continues in those august annals, to be sure, but to quite what extent much of it can seriously be regarded in general terms as any kind of "debate" must be open to question. I do, however, genuinely appreciate your drawing this to our attention, believe me, but the spectacle of people disappearing down conceptual abysses of their own making in that place is nevertheless by no means a pretty one.

I know that you will disagree viciously with me on that, even though I have little doubt that you may have at least certain reservations about some of it yourself. I accept and understand that. The music of Gordon Downie and the ways in which he seems to think about musical creation are, quite simply, not issues that a journal like that one can address meaningfully for most of its readership, even when the composer himself is given free rein to express himself - and the efforts of various people, not least the composer himself, to construct some kind of political agenda around it that somehow seeks to justify it to such a readership might almost be comic were it not so seriously flawed and worrying.

I don't want to get into the economic arguments that inevitably get dragged into the periphery of this kind of expression, as that would not, I think, help towards any understanding of ths issues involved, but suffice it to say that all this stuff about "capitalism" needs, I believe, to be understood in its proper context which is not an artificially constructed one to suit some particular kind of music persuasion but one in which it has to be accepted that just about every régime on earth in living memory has depended on and subscribed to capitalism in some form or another; I am not even seeking to defend that stance but merely to identify that even the most devoutly "communist" of all régimes in living memory has been prey to capitalism to some degree, in that it has knowingly been dependent upon and subject to the need for imports/exports and the market forces of other régimes. I'm not even saying that this has necessarily been "a good thing" - merely that it has been the case.

So - not a "debate" to which I personally want to get anywhere near, thanks - but please neveretheless accept my genuine appreciation for putting it forward here, for it is less to be mocked than it is to be taken seriously, whatever the possible consequences of the latter.

Best,

Alistair
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #74 on: 17:51:42, 10-09-2007 »

Does it? Well, something certainly continues in those august annals, to be sure, but to quite what extent much of it can seriously be regarded in general terms as any kind of "debate" must be open to question. I do, however, genuinely appreciate your drawing this to our attention, believe me, but the spectacle of people disappearing down conceptual abysses of their own making in that place is nevertheless by no means a pretty one.
I don't think they are disappearing down such conceptual abysses by any means, and to be honest I find the views on such subjects coming from those types of sources, all of which on some base level share a common (and good) political purpose, to be of equal if not greater interest to those which emerge from more mainstream musical and artistic circles.

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I know that you will disagree viciously with me on that, even though I have little doubt that you may have at least certain reservations about some of it yourself. I accept and understand that.
Well, I have differences with some of the perspectives, yes, certainly those which are rather crudely 'workerist', but that is part and parcel of dialectics.

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The music of Gordon Downie and the ways in which he seems to think about musical creation are, quite simply, not issues that a journal like that one can address meaningfully for most of its readership, even when the composer himself is given free rein to express himself -
No, I totally disagree there - those issues are, or at least should be, as meaningful and relevant to that readership as to any. And I celebrate the fact that they are being discussed there rather than elsewhere.

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and the efforts of various people, not least the composer himself, to construct some kind of political agenda around it that somehow seeks to justify it to such a readership might almost be comic were it not so seriously flawed and worrying.
Gordon is not merely talking about his own creations or creative activity, nor would he want to (and I know he was very much in two minds about a score of his being placed on the cover of the newspaper), he is looking at the very nature of artistic creation from a particular political perspective (as is anyone who considers such matters, I would say). It's not about 'constructing a political agenda' around music so much as bringing a different political agenda to bear than that which is prominent in the musical mainstream.

Quote
I don't want to get into the economic arguments that inevitably get dragged into the periphery of this kind of expression, as that would not, I think, help towards any understanding of ths issues involved, but suffice it to say that all this stuff about "capitalism" needs, I believe, to be understood in its proper context which is not an artificially constructed one to suit some particular kind of music persuasion but one in which it has to be accepted that just about every régime on earth in living memory has depended on and subscribed to capitalism in some form or another; I am not even seeking to defend that stance but merely to identify that even the most devoutly "communist" of all régimes in living memory has been prey to capitalism to some degree, in that it has knowingly been dependent upon and subject to the need for imports/exports and the market forces of other régimes. I'm not even saying that this has necessarily been "a good thing" - merely that it has been the case.
That is another issue - racism has existed in most societies as well, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't be working to try and abolish or at least minimise it.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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