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oliver sudden
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« Reply #15 on: 22:36:21, 19-09-2007 » |
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I find stems through the middle an extremely elegant solution to the 'problem', and don't find it ugly in the least. It gets my vote too.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #16 on: 22:38:22, 19-09-2007 » |
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I find stems through the middle an extremely elegant solution to the 'problem', and don't find it ugly in the least. It gets my vote too.
For everything, or just for the particular case I mentioned? (Careful what you say! you never know what effect it might have...) |
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #17 on: 22:44:11, 19-09-2007 » |
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Indeed, being careful: when I have found myself making time-spaced versions of pieces for learning purposes, stems through the middle has certainly been what I've done. It looks absolutely fine to me. I would have nothing against any composers using it exclusively; if one finds it the best solution for a certain case, indeed why not use it for everything? Or at least for everything time-spaced...
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martle
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« Reply #18 on: 22:45:40, 19-09-2007 » |
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I find stems through the middle an extremely elegant solution to the 'problem', and don't find it ugly in the least. It gets my vote too.
Oliie, I not only find it ugly, but difficult to read, too. I remember playing the piano part in Henze's Voices, and finding it very diificult to learn. Is this just an issue with keyboard parts so notated? In Voices I think I remember H (or his copyist) notating stems in this way even when they applied only to one staff. |
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Green. Always green.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #19 on: 22:46:13, 19-09-2007 » |
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How about an (entirely unrepresentative) straw poll of what the (relatively few!) performers here would most like in terms of notations, rather akin to Luther's 95 theses (not necessarily that many, though)?  |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #20 on: 22:48:05, 19-09-2007 » |
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My difficulties with keyboard parts have nothing to do with where the stems are so I can't comment on it from that point of view. I can only say how I see it as a clarinettist I suppose - and there I have no problems at all, aesthetically or practically.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #21 on: 22:48:49, 19-09-2007 » |
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Is this just an issue with keyboard parts so notated? In Voices I think I remember H (or his copyist) notating stems in this way even when they applied only to one staff.
I believe all of Henze's stuff from that period and later (and earlier?) is notated in that way, whether it's keyboard parts or not. It does make chords look less clear, especially when they have seconds in them. |
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #22 on: 22:50:08, 19-09-2007 » |
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My difficulties with keyboard parts have nothing to do with where the stems are so I can't comment on it from that point of view. I can only say how I see it as a clarinettist I suppose - and there I have no problems at all, aesthetically or practically.
Me neither. Dench used to do this, but I haven't seen his most recent scores - does he still do so, Ollie? |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #23 on: 22:52:10, 19-09-2007 » |
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It does make chords look less clear, especially when they have seconds in them.
...on the other hand chords with seconds in them are an exception to the usual left-if-up, right-if-down rule anyway. I had mentioned Chris but deleted it because I didn't think it would necessarily be of interest - but I believe he still does it that way. At least, rummage rummage, in his recent duo for bass and contrabass clarinets which is the only score of his I have to hand. |
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aaron cassidy
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« Reply #24 on: 22:52:35, 19-09-2007 » |
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Regarding up-and-down stemming: there's an issue here which I wonder whether the notators among us have come across. Sometimes, for whatever reason, it's expedient to have notes in two different staves (say for piano) stemmed together with the beams between the staves (I believe the opening of Stockhausen's Piano Piece 9 is written like this, but I can't check just at the moment). When this then has to be combined with other instruments, or more polyphonic voices in the piano part, it can become rather annoying that the notes on the lower stave, "dressing to the left" as they do, are a note's distance away horizontally from the notes in the upper stave which go to the right of the stem.
Yeah. Herr Cassidy is a Henzian in that respect, although I don't know of him ever using the sort of between-staff notation you describe. Herr Cassidy ripped it off from Chris Dench, in fact, but perhaps Chris ripped it off from Henze. And yes, there are in fact places where I've used the b/t-staff notation (in the piano piece I wrote for Member Pace, which was (I think?) the first time I used that centered-stem approach -- and in fact for exactly the reason Richard mentions .... then I thought, "hm, that looks awfully cool, and it's practical, and it certainly makes sense in my multi-stave solo pieces ... I should do this again"). It's really in the 'decoupled' pieces that the center-stem approach works best. I'll often have a single (monodic) instrument w/ multiple staves, w/ both stems-up and stems-down, and I need to be able to show the rhythmic alignment as precisely as possible. For example, in the oboe and violin parts here ... http://www.aaroncassidy.com/music/greeneither.htm |
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #25 on: 22:55:47, 19-09-2007 » |
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Well, if that looks the slightest bit ugly or unclear to anyone I can only shrug my shoulders and say de gustibus... |
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #26 on: 22:57:46, 19-09-2007 » |
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To be honest, I'm not that bothered about scores looking beautiful - more concerned that they provide maximum clarity of reading (Tsk, tsk, typical performer). More than anything, for musical notation, size matters!  (and Member Cassidy's aforementioned score is eminently readable, by the way) |
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« Last Edit: 23:00:16, 19-09-2007 by Ian Pace »
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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martle
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« Reply #27 on: 22:58:05, 19-09-2007 » |
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Well, if that looks the slightest bit ugly or unclear to anyone I can only shrug my shoulders and say de gustibus... Indeed. In retrospect, re Henze, it must have been the bulbous and inky quality of the typesetting. That's very classy, Aaron. |
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Green. Always green.
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aaron cassidy
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« Reply #28 on: 23:48:56, 19-09-2007 » |
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Well, if that looks the slightest bit ugly or unclear to anyone I can only shrug my shoulders and say de gustibus... awww, shucks. |
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richard barrett
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« Reply #29 on: 23:50:12, 19-09-2007 » |
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...on the other hand chords with seconds in them are an exception to the usual left-if-up, right-if-down rule anyway.
But with stems through the middle some of the noteheads wouldn't be attached to anything apart from another note, which could give rise to confusion sometimes. Anyway, as Aaron says, in the end it's a matter of gustibus (I still don't like the look of it* even when it's done as sophisticatedly as in your score). It doesn't make that much difference except in certain contexts which one can either avoid or make exceptions for. * if I did I'd be doing it myself! |
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« Last Edit: 23:55:09, 19-09-2007 by richard barrett »
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