The Radio 3 Boards Forum from myforum365.com
08:36:22, 02-12-2008 *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Whilst we happily welcome all genuine applications to our forum, there may be times when we need to suspend registration temporarily, for example when suffering attacks of spam.
 If you want to join us but find that the temporary suspension has been activated, please try again later.
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  

Pages: 1 2 [3]
  Print  
Author Topic: The Notation Thread  (Read 990 times)
increpatio
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 2544


‫‬‭‮‪‫‬‭‮


« Reply #30 on: 15:21:30, 20-09-2007 »

I'm pretty sure I've seen pieces where you have a section that's piano, then there's a decres. hairpin, then there's another p after that.  That is to say, in my mind, hairpins don't necessarily entail a constant increase/decrease in volume, that there can also be implicit an implicit dynamic change (in the opposite direction to the one that it's going it) at the start also.  Am I mad?
It's kind of what my clarinet teacher told me about playing Brahms (i.e. that a diminuendo can imply an accent of sorts, starting one degree louder than the surrounding material).
Ah yes, that's something in the spirit of what I had imagined.

Quote
Not quite on this topic, but one thing that I've been doing for about four years, is occasionally not specifying an end dynamic to a dim. or cresc., but instead writing poco or molto (because if you're specifying the end point, these indications are surely a bit pointless?) underneath. Every single performer that I've shown this to has been more than happy with it and has known what I meant (I suppose it's a bit like 'phrasing-off') but a few composers have had real issues with it.
Hmm yes, I sort of see what you mean.  If one wishes to have a long-term decres one can "poco a poco" it anyway.  Do you think this entails some familiarity with your style already?  Do you have fixed and communicable notions of what dim and cresc mean in your works?

I myself would in many sense prefer a stemless notation to a middle-of-stem one.  But then I've never tried learning a piece in either, so.

It does make chords look less clear, especially when they have seconds in them.

...on the other hand chords with seconds in them are an exception to the usual left-if-up, right-if-down rule anyway.
Seconds in general are slightly messy to notate (especially with accidentals).

Silly Q:  How exactly does one notate chords with seconds in the "stem in center" notation? Does one have them alternating on different sides?

Oh; that middle-of-the-note notation as aaron used it, looks quite nice (but no seconds that I could see alas).  Certainly (as a non-performer) in principle wouldn't mind learning from such a score myself.
Logged

‫‬‭‮‪‫‬‭‮
aaron cassidy
****
Posts: 499



WWW
« Reply #31 on: 15:35:41, 20-09-2007 »

Silly Q:  How exactly does one notate chords with seconds in the "stem in center" notation? Does one have them alternating on different sides?

Oh; that middle-of-the-note notation as aaron used it, looks quite nice (but no seconds that I could see alas). 

I just put them to either side, following the normal conventions.  There's one example in that file posted above ... third bar in the lower of the two violin staves (just b/f the GP).  Seems to work okay, from my point of view. 

The bigger problem for me is that I don't particularly like how chords w/ minim noteheads look w/ the center-stem approach.  With the notehead opposite the flag, I can get the stem to stop right at the edge of the notehead, but the rest of the noteheads have lines through them that make them look like crosshairs.  (No real example of that problem in the posted excerpt, but there's something similar w/ the open circle noteheads in the violin part.)  There doesn't seem to be any way around that in Finale.  (And, even if there was, it would be to increase the opacity of the actual notehead character, which would then also erase the staff line as well, which clearly won't work!)

 Sad
Logged
increpatio
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 2544


‫‬‭‮‪‫‬‭‮


« Reply #32 on: 16:01:55, 20-09-2007 »

Silly Q:  How exactly does one notate chords with seconds in the "stem in center" notation? Does one have them alternating on different sides?

Oh; that middle-of-the-note notation as aaron used it, looks quite nice (but no seconds that I could see alas). 

I just put them to either side, following the normal conventions.  There's one example in that file posted above ... third bar in the lower of the two violin staves (just b/f the GP).  Seems to work okay, from my point of view. 
Oh. Yes.  That whole line of thought seems a bit silly now.  Mind not performing the best this week.

Quote
The bigger problem for me is that I don't particularly like how chords w/ minim noteheads look w/ the center-stem approach.  With the notehead opposite the flag, I can get the stem to stop right at the edge of the notehead, but the rest of the noteheads have lines through them that make them look like crosshairs.  (No real example of that problem in the posted excerpt, but there's something similar w/ the open circle noteheads in the violin part.)  There doesn't seem to be any way around that in Finale.  (And, even if there was, it would be to increase the opacity of the actual notehead character, which would then also erase the staff line as well, which clearly won't work!)

 Sad

Oh Sad  Hmm. One might in theory get around it by having two opaque note-heads, one with a horizonal line going through it, the other without Wink  But that's resting on the assumption that finale draws the stems under the head.
Logged

‫‬‭‮‪‫‬‭‮
MT Wessel
****
Gender: Male
Posts: 406



« Reply #33 on: 01:34:07, 23-09-2007 »

Er, is this any use ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphic_notation
« Last Edit: 01:53:22, 23-09-2007 by MT Wessel » Logged

lignum crucis arbour scientiae
aaron cassidy
****
Posts: 499



WWW
« Reply #34 on: 05:30:12, 23-09-2007 »


No.
Logged
Bryn
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 3002



« Reply #35 on: 08:26:12, 23-09-2007 »


Though it does offer me the opporunity to publically celebrate the return, after some 21 years, of my copy of Cage (and Knowles's) "Notations" (mentioned on the wiki pages linked to above), along with that bluffers' guide to lefty arts viewpoints, Maynard Solomon's "Marxism and Art", both lent to a former fellow student shortly before her finals. Interest was paid in the form of Volume 1 of Louise Varèse's "a looking glass diary", and a rather mouldy copy of Xenakis's "Formalized Music".

O.K, o.k., I've got me coat ...
Logged
Ian Pace
Temporary Restriction
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 4190



« Reply #36 on: 11:46:36, 23-09-2007 »

I don't know how many of you know the volume of Haubenstock-Ramati graphic scores entitled Musik Grafic: Pre Texte (published by Ariadne)? It has the majority of his own (many) graphic scores contained within, but also a large amount of text (all in German, though) dealing with the very nature of graphic notation, with lots of information on their realisation, the aesthetic principles behind them and their relationship to abstract painting, as well as passages on serialism and serially-obtained musical structuralism. Extremely interesting and important stuff. I could post some bits from it in my own rough translations at some point if anyone's interested.

On top of this and Cage and Knowles's Notations, the other classic texts on the subject are of course Erhard Karkoschka – Notation in New Music: A Critical Guide to Interpretation and Realisation, and the much less comprehensive and wide-ranging Gardiner Read - Pictographic Score Notation: A Compendium
« Last Edit: 11:50:20, 23-09-2007 by Ian Pace » Logged

'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
aaron cassidy
****
Posts: 499



WWW
« Reply #37 on: 14:05:17, 23-09-2007 »



(I should have elaborated slightly ... No, it's not useful, b/c it's far too short/imprecise a definition to discuss the wide range of examples/issues/arguments about graphical notation (and, in particular, doesn't give anything in the definition to distinguish graphical notation from a more conventional musical notation (and, also, I'd argue that several of the components of the current wiki definition are downright false (as in "so the lines travel only to the right (forwards in time)"))).)
Logged
Kittybriton
*****
Gender: Female
Posts: 2690


Thank you for the music ...


WWW
« Reply #38 on: 13:32:03, 20-10-2007 »

Can somebody tell me please, is it possible to use conventional contemporary notation to transcribe music from any of the non-western musical traditions with an acceptable degree of accuracy? (rather than simply assuming that
Quote
pentatonic scale = oriental music

i.e. such that Joe Bloggs would recognize "that Indian Raga that I heard the other day" or "something I heard in Japan"
Logged

Click me ->About me
or me ->my handmade store
No, I'm not a complete idiot. I'm only a halfwit. In fact I'm actually a catfish.
autoharp
*****
Posts: 2778



« Reply #39 on: 15:32:15, 20-10-2007 »

Can somebody tell me please, is it possible to use conventional contemporary notation to transcribe music from any of the non-western musical traditions with an acceptable degree of accuracy? (rather than simply assuming that
Quote
pentatonic scale = oriental music

i.e. such that Joe Bloggs would recognize "that Indian Raga that I heard the other day" or "something I heard in Japan"

Many who make such transcriptions use conventional notation, often with additional signs for . . . well, whatever seems to be a good idea with the particular music. I don't know what you mean by "with an acceptable degree of accuracy": I seem to remember that both Reginald Smith Brindle and Marc-Andre Hamelin (to name but two, rather different, commentators) have pointed out that conventional (or unconventional) Western notation only provides a fraction (certainly less than half) of the information which the performer, or anybody else, needs to know.
Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3]
  Print  
 
Jump to: