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Author Topic: How secret should a secret be?  (Read 329 times)
time_is_now
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« on: 15:48:02, 24-09-2007 »

Despite what must be numerous hearings of that EIC/Boulez CD [Birtwistle, Secret Theatre etc.] as a teenager (it was one of the first contemporary-music CDs I owned), I have no memory of anything after about the first minute and a half of Secret Theatre.

That's true for me for much of Birtwistle's music, too, but .... tinners, that is rather the point of B's large-scale structural approach, I would think? His general fascination w/ labyrinths (or, moreover, the "parade form" works) would suggest that your ability to find signposts and mnemonic routes back through the piece is intended to be compromised.

Much more to say on that, but probably not in the NS thread.
My first reaction to AC's comment is: Oh, it had never occurred to me ('Never?!', I hear you say. Ok, well maybe I'm being just a little bit disingenuous here ...) that it was a question of problematising my listening experience, so much as his composing experience.

Or, perhaps better put, I don't see why turning the moment-to-moment logic of formal unfolding into a matter of unprecedented contingency (which is surely what Birtwistle's into, no?) should equate to that contingent result not being repeatable and therefore potentially memorisable for a listener.

Well, that's 2 options. Any more alternatives anyone would like to offer up? Or thoughts on mine?
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
Chafing Dish
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« Reply #1 on: 16:11:43, 24-09-2007 »

Anyone else hear the rumor that Punch and Judy is a gargantuan, strictly proportioned sonata form? I have only heard the thing once, live, in Basel (I think) -- and it certainly wasn't obvious to me...
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richard barrett
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« Reply #2 on: 16:21:44, 24-09-2007 »

What is a "strictly proportioned sonata form"?

Punch is certainly strictly proportioned, and I can see easily how its overall form could be likened to a sonata, but that could be said about very many pieces without necessarily explaining anything crucial about them. One could also say it has a Marteau sans maître form in that it consists largely of interlocking "cycles", and I would imagine that the Boulez of the 1950s is at least as important a precedent for Birtwistle as are "classical" structures like the sonata.
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stuart macrae
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ascolta


« Reply #3 on: 17:04:53, 24-09-2007 »

Well, I've never heard Punch and Judy in sonata form either. But perhaps its cyclical nature lends it to that sort of interpretation.

We'll have a chance to see/hear it for ourselves again next year in London (and rumour has it there might even be two different productions...)

As far as Secret Theatre is concerned, I always found it slightly so-what-ish - despite repeated listenings to the Boulez/IE recording with and without the score - until I saw a very good live performance by students at the RSAMD with members of the Hebrides Ensemble. The piece became a much more complete experience, and was quite moving (although I suspect my prior familiarity with the piece helped).
« Last Edit: 17:08:36, 24-09-2007 by stuart macrae » Logged
richard barrett
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« Reply #4 on: 17:13:50, 24-09-2007 »

Well, I've never heard Punch and Judy in sonata form either. But perhaps its cyclical nature lends it to that sort of interpretation.
I haven't heard it at all for years! (Must get those CDs some time) But from what I remember one could contrive a sense of first subject (the violent bits), second (the lyrical bits), much formal repetition in the "exposition", and a development culminating at the point where Punch screams "Horsey! Horsey!" after which there follows a rearrangement of the initial "materials" in some kind of recapitulation and coda. But maybe my memory isn't good enough to make statements like that, or maybe I just don't understand sonata form.
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martle
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« Reply #5 on: 17:14:36, 24-09-2007 »

Anyone else hear the rumor that Punch and Judy is a gargantuan, strictly proportioned sonata form? I have only heard the thing once, live, in Basel (I think) -- and it certainly wasn't obvious to me...

Not at all obvious if it is, and as others have said, what IS obvious is the cyclic structure - an obsession of HB's as we know, and deriving (at least in this case) from his fascination with the formal (and interlocking) structures of Greek drama. (Tragoedia is a miniature study for P&J, and similarly obsessive about cycles and the nature of musical gestures as they pertain to different parts of the cycle.) That isn't to say, though, that cyclic and sonata structures can't co-exist (Sibelius 5/1, anyone?)
Interesting, though. I haven't heard it in a while, but I always remember what an impact those very select numbers that 'buck the cyclic trend' have, not least the climactic and proportionately extremely long (and fast!) 'Nightmare' number. 'An oo-ooo-oo-ooo-zing EYE!'
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Green. Always green.
martle
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« Reply #6 on: 17:22:16, 24-09-2007 »

...also, as the only other person in the world who's worked on a libretto with Stephen Pruslin, I can confirm that cyclic and symmetrical aspects of Punch and Judy are equally likely to have stemmed from him!
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Green. Always green.
oliver sudden
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« Reply #7 on: 17:58:01, 24-09-2007 »

a twisted neck
a gangrene foot
thesetreatswithwhichyoutrickeduswe'll
now
treatastricksonyou!

DWEEDWEEDWEEDWEE!

Ah, memories.

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Chafing Dish
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« Reply #8 on: 00:03:59, 25-09-2007 »

strictly proportioned as in exactly 100 measures of this, 100 measures of that... or maybe 1000 measures of this, etc
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