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thompson1780
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« Reply #15 on: 16:03:45, 19-10-2007 » |
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Anyway, he may have been pulling my leg. I can't find a score to check.
Oh. Yes, I can. http://everynote.com/goods.1/Baz_VP_Rondo.pdfAlthough I don't believe this is the urtext......  All the same, I suspect my leg was being pulled Tommo |
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Made by Thompson & son, at the Violin & c. the West end of St. Paul's Churchyard, LONDON
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rauschwerk
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« Reply #16 on: 18:09:05, 19-10-2007 » |
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Every performance of that Bazzini piece I have heard (Perlman, Menuhin and others) takes it at around crotchet 190, so it's very interesting to see the score!
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perfect wagnerite
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« Reply #17 on: 18:19:11, 19-10-2007 » |
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Would not those slower tempi not themselves have been a response to acoustic conditions at the Festspielhaus?
I haven't been there myself (though I'd very much like to) so this is pure speculation, but one notices that the only opera written after it had been opened, Parsifal, generally involves a somewhat leaner and less detailed orchestral sound than its predecessors - because Wagner had found that the more changeable and dense textures of the Ring didn't sound as clear there as he'd expected them to?
They may well have done - I don't know enough about the acoustic properties of the place, other than what I've heard on disc (I've never been either). I'd always assumed that it was down to: - the attempts to deify Wagner in the Cosima era, to turn the works into ritual, rather than, in Norrington's words, playing it as if it were music; - and the difficulty of playing the music. Goodall justified his tempi on the basis that they allowed the inner parts to be heard; on the assumption that orchestral playing of what was then new music was likely to be less technically assured than it is now, slower tempi may have arisen out of necessity (there's an interesting comment by Vaughan Williams, quoted in Michael Kennedy's biography, about how the standards of playing and singing at Bayreuth had improvied out of all recognition between the 1890s and the 1950s). |
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At every one of these [classical] concerts in England you will find rows of weary people who are there, not because they really like classical music, but because they think they ought to like it. (Shaw, Don Juan in Hell)
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Tony Watson
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« Reply #18 on: 19:20:01, 19-10-2007 » |
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I think the March to the Scaffold from Symphonie Fantastique is seldom played at a suitable tempo for marching to.
My amateur orchestra is rehearsing Brahms' 4th symphony at the moment and the conductor insists on putting a big rall in about two-thirds of the way through the first movement, even though it's not marked. "It's traditional," he says. I don't like it.
And my avatar's disappeared, I see!
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Baziron
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« Reply #19 on: 19:47:32, 19-10-2007 » |
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Larghetto is, I must urge, a little less slow than Largo. When this aria is taken just a notch faster than the normal self-indulgent and lugubrious funerial pace usually encountered, the piece suddenly moves forward with a gentle bounce (but without losing any of its gravity).
It is, after all, not an aria of grieving at all (there are some marvellous arias in that genre in the work, notably Arsamene's...)... it's an Ode to a Plane Tree, for lawks's sake... with no particular tragic qualities at all. The tree isn't even keeling over, or in need of tree surgery... It certainly is! But I wonder whether the performers in the second extract below had any idea about that?! Baz  1. A LARGHETTO that Handel might have recognized2. An apparently "religious" LARGO that Handel probably would not have recognized |
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #20 on: 00:12:13, 20-10-2007 » |
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And my avatar's disappeared, I see!
Like the rall in Brahms #4, Tony, "it's traditional"  Mine disappeared all of yesterday, but then came back again today with no action on my part. I think it happens when John W wears a string of garlic around his neck, and my image becomes invisible. |
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
- Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
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Tony Watson
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« Reply #21 on: 00:31:57, 20-10-2007 » |
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I think I've fixed my avatar - for now. Blame John W if you like (who doesn't?) but there are forces out there we're only just beginning to understand...
[Cue creepy music]
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #22 on: 01:07:42, 20-10-2007 » |
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Mozart's magic train should enter the station at full steam and stop in an instant at the end of his score:
A good many quartet ensembles get the rhythm quite wrong here; they play the final three notes at half speed and/or even put them on the first beat of a bar. Again that was not Beethoven's intention at all!
How do you know, Mr Grew? We are in the fortunate position of knowing it with absolute certainty through our research of the facts, through our vast experience, through native nous, through our worldly wisdom and savoir-faire, through our instinctive sense of what is appropriate, through discernment based on historical principles, and above all through our unerring musical taste, all of those operating harmoniously together. |
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richard barrett
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« Reply #23 on: 01:26:27, 20-10-2007 » |
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We are in the fortunate position of knowing it with absolute certainty through our research of the facts, through our vast experience, through native nous, through our worldly wisdom and savoir-faire, through our instinctive sense of what is appropriate, through discernment based on historical principles, and above all through our unerring musical taste, all of those operating harmoniously together.
Gosh!  |
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MT Wessel
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« Reply #24 on: 01:39:47, 20-10-2007 » |
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Is that fully inflated ?
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lignum crucis arbour scientiae
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richard barrett
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« Reply #25 on: 01:46:11, 20-10-2007 » |
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You mean Sidney or the balloon?
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rauschwerk
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« Reply #26 on: 10:34:18, 20-10-2007 » |
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We are in the fortunate position of knowing it with absolute certainty through our research of the facts, through our vast experience, through native nous, through our worldly wisdom and savoir-faire, through our instinctive sense of what is appropriate, through discernment based on historical principles, and above all through our unerring musical taste, all of those operating harmoniously together.
Oh Mr Grew! You unaccountably failed to advertise your preternatural modesty. |
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #27 on: 18:56:41, 20-10-2007 » |
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As far as all those inos and ettos go: my take on that is that at least etymologically they are diminutives of whatever the first bit is. So larghetto is less broad than largo, andantino is less going than andante (in other words slower), allegretto is less jolly than allegro...
Like Member Grew, I am no fan of the unthinking application of the closing rallentando or ritenuto. But I have more often heard the end of the Beethoven C# minor faster than what precedes it - sometimes as though there were a ritenuto marked where Beethoven wrote Tempo I, then an a tempo over the last three notes. This I find disagreeable.
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Martin
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« Reply #28 on: 18:51:53, 24-10-2007 » |
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As far as all those inos and ettos go: my take on that is that at least etymologically they are diminutives of whatever the first bit is. So larghetto is less broad than largo, andantino is less going than andante (in other words slower), allegretto is less jolly than allegro...
Now that makes a lot of sense to me. Cheers, Mr. S. |
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