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Author Topic: Frequently Scorned Tempo-Markings  (Read 645 times)
Reiner Torheit
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« on: 02:39:08, 19-10-2007 »


Oh blimey, here comes one of those adagios...  get the Kleenex out...

This unfortunate idea seems to have arisen from that famous fraud of musical history "Albinoni's Adagio" (in G-Minor) - in fact a piece by Remo Giazotto based on seven notes (found on scrap paper) by the celebrated operatic composer Tomaso Albinoni (whose operas, of course, we never hear at all).  This wretched dirge has become a meme for wallowing grief-stricken wretchedness, and is therefore not played "ad agio" at all, but larghamente ("extremely slowly").

Ad agio means "at your ease", ie "a relaxed tempo", and doesn't mean "slow".  A notch down from adagio is grave, and only THEN do we finally reach "slow" (lento).

What other tempo-markings - either generally, or in specific works, do you find frequently ignored by performers who believe they know better than the composer?
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
Sydney Grew
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« Reply #1 on: 10:08:09, 19-10-2007 »

What other tempo-markings - either generally, or in specific works, do you find frequently ignored by performers who believe they know better than the composer?

Here are two examples. The first comes at the very end of Mozart's Forty-first Symphony. Many conductors try to imitate a railway train pulling into a station; they go more and more slowly until the final bar is played at less than half speed! But that was not Mozart's intention at all; there were no trains in the seventeen-eighties. Mozart's magic train should enter the station at full steam and stop in an instant at the end of his score:


Our second example comes at the very end of Beethoven's Fourteenth String Quartet. A good many quartet ensembles get the rhythm quite wrong here; they play the final three notes at half speed and/or even put them on the first beat of a bar. Again that was not Beethoven's intention at all! The three- and four-note chords are difficult to play on stringed instruments and sound ugly, but they are what he wrote and faithful players should keep up the speed:

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Martin
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« Reply #2 on: 12:26:19, 19-10-2007 »

We may like to consider the difference between tempo markings in the first and last movements of Mozart 40. Can anyone show them here, I don't have the score. I seem to recall they are two types of Allegro, but which is faster? (Hope that whets your appetite when I only have half the information to hand.)

And then there is the Adagietto in Mahler 5. what speed is that?

Indeed, let's clear up the -etto situation once and for all:  Allegro/Allegretto, Largo/Larghetto, Adagio/Adagietto - what's the difference? and do conductors really get it right?

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roslynmuse
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« Reply #3 on: 13:04:07, 19-10-2007 »

Barber's Violin Concerto. How many times do we hear it with TWO slow movements? The first is an Allegro, for heaven's sake!
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #4 on: 13:08:54, 19-10-2007 »

My understanding of the -etto markings is that they imply a tempo one half-notch faster than without... so adagietto is a tiny bit quicker than adagio, etc...     is that what others think too?

Absolutely agreed about Barber, and moreover about his eponymous Adagio, which is wrung for every possible overwrought emotion into a largo or even a lento on most occasions.
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
Don Basilio
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« Reply #5 on: 13:30:01, 19-10-2007 »

Scholes' Oxford Companion to Music defines allegretto as "pretty lively (but not so much as allegro.)"

Ie slower than allegro.  Whereas the less common adagietto (is it unique to Mahler?) is a bit faster than adagio.

Isn't larghetto a bit slower than largo.

Come to think of it, if as reiner tells us, lento is slow and adagio slowish,  where do largo and andante come in?  I thought that was the difference between them.
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #6 on: 13:35:57, 19-10-2007 »

  where do largo and andante come in? 

Laaaaargo al factotum della citta, lar-go....

The ever-debatable Wikipedia gives (in the entry on Tempo) the following list of tempi (fastest at the top)

Prestissimo - extremely fast (200 - 208 bpm)
Vivacissimo - Very fast and lively
Presto - very fast (168 - 200 bpm)
Allegrissimo - very fast
Vivo - lively and fast
Vivace - lively and fast (~140 bpm)
Allegro - fast and bright (120 - 168 bpm)
Allegro Moderato - Moderately cheerful and quick
Allegretto - moderately fast (but less so than Allegro)
Moderato - moderately (90 - 115 bpm)
Andantino - Alternatively faster or slower than Andante.
Andante - at a walking pace (76 - 108 bpm)
Adagietto - Rather slow (70-80 bpm)
Adagio - slow and stately (literally, at ease) (66 - 76 bpm)
Grave - slow and solemn
Larghetto - rather broadly (60 - 66 bpm)
Lento - very slow (60 - 40 bpm)
Largamente/Largo - "broadly", very slow (40 bpm and below)


And by the way where has my avatar gone today?  It seems to come and go with a will of its own...  perhaps its on those occasions when I can't see my own reflection in the mirror...?
« Last Edit: 13:37:35, 19-10-2007 by Reiner Torheit » Logged

"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
Baziron
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« Reply #7 on: 13:52:14, 19-10-2007 »

We need go no further than "Ombra mai fu", the famous aria from Xerxes by George Frideric Handel - commonly known as "Handel's Largo"...

...except, of course, Handel carefully marked it Larghetto!

Larghetto is, I must urge, a little less slow than Largo. When this aria is taken just a notch faster than the normal self-indulgent and lugubrious funerial pace usually encountered, the piece suddenly moves forward with a gentle bounce (but without losing any of its gravity).

Baz
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perfect wagnerite
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« Reply #8 on: 14:00:49, 19-10-2007 »

Wagner, universally.

All the evidence suggests that Wagner intended his music to move much faster than has become established practice.  There are reliable timings of Wagner's own performances of at least the overtures to his works, and these are often suprisingly quick - the Meistersinger prelude in a little over eight minutes, as distinct from the 10-11 minutes it is usually played at today.  And the Tristan prelude is marked Langsam und schmachtend, but is in 6/8 and is marked belebt as it approaches its climax (there are frequent expressive tempo changes marked in the score).  The rot seems to have set in in Cosima's Bayreuth.

There are conductors who can make slower Wagner work (Goodall, triumphantly so).  But, objectively, the evidence suggests it's wrong.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #9 on: 14:14:43, 19-10-2007 »

Would not those slower tempi not themselves have been a response to acoustic conditions at the Festspielhaus?

I haven't been there myself (though I'd very much like to) so this is pure speculation, but one notices that the only opera written after it had been opened, Parsifal, generally involves a somewhat leaner and less detailed orchestral sound than its predecessors - because Wagner had found that the more changeable and dense textures of the Ring didn't sound as clear there as he'd expected them to?

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richard barrett
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« Reply #10 on: 14:22:41, 19-10-2007 »

Andantino - Alternatively faster or slower than Andante.

Very helpful I must say. What should also be borne in mind is that these indications aren't just to do with speed but with general expressive affect, particularly in the baroque period when they first became widely used. Some indications used at that time (eg. Affettuoso, very common in Telemann's instrumental music) don't really have any particular implications for tempo, others (eg. Allegro) seem to point to tempo as well as "tone of voice", while others (eg. Presto) seem straightforwardly connected to speed.
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #11 on: 14:40:35, 19-10-2007 »

Larghetto is, I must urge, a little less slow than Largo. When this aria is taken just a notch faster than the normal self-indulgent and lugubrious funerial pace usually encountered, the piece suddenly moves forward with a gentle bounce (but without losing any of its gravity).

It is, after all, not an aria of grieving at all (there are some marvellous arias in that genre in the work, notably Arsamene's...)...  it's an Ode to a Plane Tree, for lawks's sake...  with no particular tragic qualities at all.  The tree isn't even keeling over, or in need of tree surgery...
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
thompson1780
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« Reply #12 on: 15:01:50, 19-10-2007 »

I may be mistaken, but I seem to remember a violinist friend of mine telling me that Bazzini's 'Ronde des Lutins' is actually Andante.

I can actually imagine it being sinister and like a 'Hall of the Mountain King' type work, rather than crazy franctic running around.

Anyway, he may have been pulling my leg.  I can't find a score to check.

Tommo

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rauschwerk
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« Reply #13 on: 15:21:46, 19-10-2007 »

Mozart's magic train should enter the station at full steam and stop in an instant at the end of his score:

A good many quartet ensembles get the rhythm quite wrong here; they play the final three notes at half speed and/or even put them on the first beat of a bar. Again that was not Beethoven's intention at all!


How do you know, Mr Grew? At that time composers did not indicate every single nuance in their scores. Maybe they would have axepcted a ritardando in these cases ,though I agree that it shouldn't be excessive.
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rauschwerk
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« Reply #14 on: 15:56:35, 19-10-2007 »


What other tempo-markings - either generally, or in specific works, do you find frequently ignored by performers who believe they know better than the composer?

In the first movement of Beethoven's Moonlight sonata, the Adagio sostenuto direction is often taken to refer to the crotchets but it actually refers to the minims, the time signature being 2/2. That said, Solomon took it very slowly indeed on his recording and made it work wonderfully.

I get irritated by musicians who, observing that some of Beethoven's markings cannot be strictly observed, ignore them completely. The first movement of the Eroica symphony is marked Allegro con brio at dotted minim 60 (Beethoven meant this to apply to the opening bars, anyway). In his 1955 recording, Klemperer begins at 46! If his idea of Allegro con brio were transferred to either of two movements with the same marking - those of the Waldstein sonata or the C minor Piano Trio from Op 1 - I believe it would be found impossibly ponderous. But clearly there are many who love Klemperer's way with this piece. Give me Mackerras's 56 any day (but Richard Osborne likened the music at that speed to 'Mendelssohn with a headache').
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