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Author Topic: What does Well-Tempered mean anyway?  (Read 2391 times)
oliver sudden
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« Reply #60 on: 11:44:27, 06-11-2007 »

...ah! And was it not the selfsame George who supplied Schönberg as he then was with the text for his epochal Second String Quartet (1907-08)?

Ich fühle luft von anderem planeten
Mir blassen durch das dunkel die gesichter
Die freundlich eben noch sich zu mir drehten.
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C Dish
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« Reply #61 on: 17:38:49, 06-11-2007 »

George supposedly once said something to the effect of "My grammar/vocabulary/diction/(??) is barbed wire to keep out the uninitiated."

Does any George expert here have the precise reference? It was quoted favorably by Schönberg, I'm told. Don't have direct access to the quote, either. Dika Newlin, maybe? Doubtful.
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inert fig here
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« Reply #62 on: 19:19:08, 06-11-2007 »

the possibility of getting away from it all on a canoeing trip. This was the dream of the little Austrian here depicted
Indeed. A balm refused by one of our distinguished Members - with conscious allusion we have sometimes idly wondered, although of course the direct reference was not to an Austrian.


George supposedly once said something to the effect of "My grammar/vocabulary/diction/(??) is barbed wire to keep out the uninitiated."
I've never heard that one before, but it's oddly similar to something Adorno said (and which I can't remember even half-properly) about the shard of glass in the eye.

Apologies for prolonging Mr Grew's little off-topic diversion. I'm as interested as anyone by the revelations of Madame Ena, although I'd be fascinated to know whether this is their première publication or whether she has taken time out from the Rovers Return to unveil them hitherto in any of the North-West of England's numerous scholarly journals.
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
Ena
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« Reply #63 on: 20:44:17, 06-11-2007 »

Apologies for prolonging Mr Grew's little off-topic diversion. I'm as interested as anyone by the revelations of Madame Ena, although I'd be fascinated to know whether this is their première publication or whether she has taken time out from the Rovers Return to unveil them hitherto in any of the North-West of England's numerous scholarly journals.

No need for apologies Mr Tin - although I've been around here for only a short time, it's long enough for me to appreciate the wisdom, wit and (indeed) relevance (even if somewhat ephemeral in its outward appearance) of Mr Grew's gorgeous contributions. (Do you happen to know, Mr Tin, whether he gives English lessons - if he does I might prevail upon his savoir-faire in the future [assuming, of course, he is not averse to coaching an old, crotchety street-wise bully of a women like me!]).

Unfortunately, I cannot in all honesty claim that all the ideas I advanced here constitute what you term a 'première publication'. But those that have previously appeared were never published in any outlet stemming from the North-West of England! They were (in various reconstituted forms) published in various outlets stemming from the South of England, together with the west coast of the USA. Beyond that, my lips are sealed.

 Cool
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George Garnett
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« Reply #64 on: 09:05:48, 31-12-2007 »

Richard Egarr, he of the Well Tempered Clavier recording which uses the Bradley Lehman tuning, is performing Book 1 at [the] Wigmore Hall on 9 July. Not to be missed? The blurb doesn't say anything at all about how well tempered he will be but presumably he will be using that same tuning. He's giving a pre-concert talk so no doubt all will be revealed then.

A question about the curly line which I haven't got yet (and apologies if I have missed it). Has it always been understood that the curly line contains a clue to Bach's intentions and the debate has always been about what it means? Or is it only fairly recently that people have started looking at the curly line at all as having significance? 

If it is the latter, is it surprising that the early commentators on what 'well-tempered' meant i.e. in the generation after Bach's death, don't seem to have referred to the curly line (much? at all?)? 
« Last Edit: 09:17:33, 31-12-2007 by George Garnett » Logged
oliver sudden
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« Reply #65 on: 09:28:42, 31-12-2007 »

I believe that the first interpretation of the squiggle as being a tuning diagram was by Andreas Sparschuh of the Technical University, Darmstadt in 1999. So yes, fairly recent.
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Turfan Fragment
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« Reply #66 on: 21:22:50, 28-04-2008 »

Dude -- I know how old this thread is.

Is there any evidence that the two books of the Well-Tempered Clavier (20 years apart in the publication) were written with two different well temperaments in mind?

Reason I ask: I'd be interested in looking more closely at key characteristics and whether the various preludes and fugues for a particular key exhibit similar predilections based on key. I can say that I feel this to be the case just from listening to and glancing at them, but haven't checked more closely. If the answer to the above question is 'yes', then that would save me a lot of trouble and/or 'nguish.

(I realize that 4 pieces is a rather small sample for any significant quasi-scientific investigation)

Is there any extant literature on this topic which experts here can point me to?
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Baz
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« Reply #67 on: 11:48:05, 29-04-2008 »

Dude -- I know how old this thread is.

Is there any evidence that the two books of the Well-Tempered Clavier (20 years apart in the publication) were written with two different well temperaments in mind?

Reason I ask: I'd be interested in looking more closely at key characteristics and whether the various preludes and fugues for a particular key exhibit similar predilections based on key. I can say that I feel this to be the case just from listening to and glancing at them, but haven't checked more closely. If the answer to the above question is 'yes', then that would save me a lot of trouble and/or 'nguish.

(I realize that 4 pieces is a rather small sample for any significant quasi-scientific investigation)

Is there any extant literature on this topic which experts here can point me to?

I have replied with a new thread at http://r3ok.myforum365.com/index.php?topic=2928.msg109468#msg109468

Baz
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Turfan Fragment
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« Reply #68 on: 21:54:32, 21-08-2008 »

Does anyone know offhand the tuning system used in Davitt Moroney's recording of the Well-Tempered Clavier?

What do Members make of this recording?
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #69 on: 22:20:10, 21-08-2008 »

He writes in his programme text: "...it has recently become fashionable to claim that Bach intended Das Wohltemperierte Clavier to be played on a harpsichord tuned not in equal temperament, but rather in Werckmeister's system, or some comparable kind of unequal temperament... the hypothesis that Bach might have composed pieces in all the keys precisely because he wished to exploit the tonal characteristics of an unequal temperament simply does not stand up to serious reasoning. This is shown by the fact that he actually transposed some pieces from simple keys... to difficult ones..."

So I'm thinking equal. The recording doesn't do much for me in any case.
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Turfan Fragment
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« Reply #70 on: 22:27:18, 21-08-2008 »

Zing!

Well, thanks for that info -- our library's copy of the recording seems to lack the program notes.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #71 on: 22:32:13, 21-08-2008 »

Does anyone know offhand the tuning system used in Davitt Moroney's recording of the Well-Tempered Clavier?

What do Members make of this recording?

It sounds to me like equal temperament, or something as close to it as makes no difference, and I don't find it particularly interesting either. (I love his French Suites though.)
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Baz
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« Reply #72 on: 05:41:25, 23-08-2008 »

He writes in his programme text: "...it has recently become fashionable to claim that Bach intended Das Wohltemperierte Clavier to be played on a harpsichord tuned not in equal temperament, but rather in Werckmeister's system, or some comparable kind of unequal temperament... the hypothesis that Bach might have composed pieces in all the keys precisely because he wished to exploit the tonal characteristics of an unequal temperament simply does not stand up to serious reasoning. This is shown by the fact that he actually transposed some pieces from simple keys... to difficult ones..."

That is a strange and puzzling piece of logic! I don't know which transposed pieces he has in mind, but why should Bach bother to transpose a piece from a "simple" to a "difficult" key only for it to sound identical? It seems more logical (to me anyway) that he transposed it because he had decided that it sounded better in one key than in another (and if it did then the instrument could simply not have been equally tempered). We know for sure that his transpositions were sometimes made because of the pitch-difference between Chorton and Kammerton, and that when instruments that played together were pitched simultaneously in these differing base pitches the tuning cycles (for meantone and Well Temperament) must respectively have been different for the two to agree with each other. I just cannot see where or why Equal Temperament should enter the thinking at all.

Baz
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trained-pianist
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« Reply #73 on: 08:05:07, 23-08-2008 »

A few days ago viola d'amore came up in my conversation with a friend.

I can not read all the thread because it will take too much time. I don't know if you already talked about viola d'amore.

A friend bought a good viola d'amore few years ago in Romania. It is a beautiful instrument, but it has to be tuned often.
My friend told me that the player had to stop between each movement to tune and there was a need to stop and tune even before the end of a movement.

Another friend said that if they so to speak break the neck of the viola like on baroque pictures, then it will be better.
I can not explain because I don't understand it myself, but my friend wants to try.

Why is it viola d'amore has difficulty to be tuned? Do they use viola d'amore in period instument orchestras or because of the reason I said before it is not used?

Here we think that it is very beautiful instrument with soulful tone.


I wish I could hear the concert with viola d'amore that he heard his friend played. I played Marais music with viola player. We liked it very much, but were not sure if the time of these music is behind us.
My composer-friend loved it.
« Last Edit: 13:01:58, 23-08-2008 by trained-pianist » Logged
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« Reply #74 on: 12:38:49, 23-08-2008 »

It seems more logical (to me anyway) that he transposed it because he had decided that it sounded better in one key than in another (and if it did then the instrument could simply not have been equally tempered).
I admit to not following Prof. Moroney's thinking either, but I don't have the whole text before me. Nevertheless, I always understood it that the transposition of some pieces into different keys for the WTC may have been a matter of economy, i.e., finding a reasonably appropriate piece and using it rather than devising a new one from scratch. G*d knows he did that often enough in his cantatas, and everywhere else.

Which hypothesis does nothing, of course, for the debate here engendered.

I have yet to hear the Moroney recording and cannot comment on how uninteresting it is.
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