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trained-pianist
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« on: 15:56:48, 09-02-2008 » |
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I have a student that is playing Debussy Prelude 1 and 2. I also decided to play it myself. Unfortunately I don't know French. I feel stupid, but here I don't know anyone who can tell me. Can anyone tell me what the following expressions mean: 1. doux it soutenu 2. coux mais en dehors 3. Dans un rythme sans rigueur et caressnat (this one I can guess, but just ask because I want to know exactly) 4. Cedez - probably slower 5. Serrez Cedez 6. Tres apaise at tres attenue jusqu'a la fin http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1NHoeYfXHI I found youngish Richter is playing Debussy's two preludes. |
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time_is_now
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« Reply #1 on: 16:01:14, 09-02-2008 » |
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1. doux et soutenu soft (or gentle) and sustained 2. coux mais en dehors I don't recognise the first word, are you sure it's not 'court' or something else? 'Mais en dehors' means 'but rubato'. 3. Dans un rythme sans rigueur et caressant 'In a caressing rhythm, not strict'. Cedez Slower/hold back (like ritardando). Serrez Accelerando. (Edited to take account of Evan's clarification re 'caressant'.) |
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« Last Edit: 16:13:33, 09-02-2008 by time_is_now »
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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Evan Johnson
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« Reply #2 on: 16:07:45, 09-02-2008 » |
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1. doux it soutenu soft (or gentle) and sustained 2. coux mais en dehors I don't recognise the first word, are you sure it's not 'court' or something else? 'Mais en dehors' means 'but rubato'. Whuh? "en dehors" = prominently, "sticking out" of the texture, n'est-ce pas? 3. Dans un rythme sans rigueur et caressnat Can you check the last word? The bit before it means 'In a rhythm which is not strict'. Presumably that least word is "caressant," i.e. "caressing..." for what that's worth. |
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time_is_now
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« Reply #3 on: 16:17:17, 09-02-2008 » |
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Whuh? "en dehors" = prominently, "sticking out" of the texture, n'est-ce pas?
Apparently you're right, Evan, although that seems odd to me, as 'en dehors' is so frequently encountered in French scores and 'prominent' is not a standard English marking (nor can I think of a regular Italian or German equivalent). Rubato is a kind of prominence/protrusion, isn't it? When applied to a melodic phrase/strand ... That's how I always read it! Obviously I was wrong. |
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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trained-pianist
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« Reply #4 on: 16:29:11, 09-02-2008 » |
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Thank you so much for your help. I now wrote the words into the music not to forget.
I misspelled #2. It should have been doux mais en dehors. I probably misplaced my hands on keyboard.
There is a word Emporte and after a while Cedez there.
I presume this is like glissando - comme un tres leger glissando
I am exploring new repertoire for myself. If I just listen and don't look at the score I don't know these things. Also it is good to try things, new touch, new colours.
All my life I stayed with German and Russian repertoire. (plus Chopin, who is Polish/French.
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« Last Edit: 17:10:01, 09-02-2008 by trained-pianist »
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #5 on: 16:45:51, 09-02-2008 » |
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'En dehors' does indeed mean 'prominent'. One encounters 'hervortretend' quite often in German scores; the Italian version is 'in rilievo'. So it means to bring out the melody (e.g. bar 11 of Danseuses de Delphes, bar 9 of Voiles).
Emporté literally means 'carried away' - usually an accelerando. (That would be bars 43-44 of Voiles, no? So the instruction is to push forward to the forte and then slow down towards the end of 44.) If you order something at a French restaurant to take away the phrase is 'à emporter', for what it's worth.
'Très apaisé': very calm (literally 'calmed'). 'Atténué' is literally 'eased'. So, calm and relaxed to the end (last 7 bars of Voiles).
Serrez literally means 'tighten' - 'serrez vos ceintures' means 'tighten your [seat- or other] belts' for example. Literally the same as 'stringendo' in Italian.
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trained-pianist
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« Reply #6 on: 17:43:52, 09-02-2008 » |
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ollie, Indeed the Emporty and then Cedez is in bar 43 -44 (if I counted correctly, there is no bar numbers in my edition). I have an old book published by editio musica Budapest in 1970. I never thought I will have time to play them. How do you know all that so well (including bar numbers). Did you play that? May be there is an arrangement for clarinet and piano? Is there an orchestral version? I had to look what Delphes is. So many times I have seen Danseuses de Delphes printed in programs and I did not know what it means.  They had an important oracle there.   The first oracle was Sibyl. |
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Evan Johnson
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« Reply #7 on: 19:24:42, 09-02-2008 » |
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'En dehors' does indeed mean 'prominent'. One encounters 'hervortretend' quite often in German scores; the Italian version is 'in rilievo'. So it means to bring out the melody (e.g. bar 11 of Danseuses de Delphes, bar 9 of Voiles).
I am not the polyglot that you or several others are, but I've always remembered 'en dehors' because it's always struck me as a weird idiom -- meaning as it does, literally, "outside" -- or "out of doors" -- yes? thus "hervortretend" and "in rilievo" are quite different in effect... perhaps you or others could opine as to whether that idiomatic usage of "en dehors" is in use in conversational or literary French in the meaning by which it is applied musically -- as something like "especially", oder so was... |
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #8 on: 00:58:00, 18-03-2008 » |
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Only just saw this...
I can only guess it might correspond most closely with 'brought out'. Dehors I've most commonly encountered meaning 'outside', but hors has a variety of connotations - hors concours, hors mesure, hors d'œuvre and so on...
t-p, I have the piano music and from time to time try to get through it. There are a few of the preludes I can manage but alas none of them all the way through up to speed. Except maybe Des pas sur la neige if I were to practise a lot...
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time_is_now
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« Reply #9 on: 01:03:30, 18-03-2008 » |
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Surely you can manage Les sons et les parfums..., Ollie? Don't remember any particularly tricky fast spots in that (well, apart from that quick downward arpeggio-type gesture that comes round a couple of times).
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #10 on: 01:05:24, 18-03-2008 » |
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You overestimate the Sudden fingers I fear, tinners. But I'll give it a go tomorrow.
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Turfan Fragment
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« Reply #11 on: 04:40:15, 18-03-2008 » |
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Des pas sur la neige is I think extraordinarily difficult. When I play it, it sounds like pas sur la schlamm.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #12 on: 08:36:00, 18-03-2008 » |
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Surely you could also play La fille aux cheveux de lin, or its counterpart in Book 2, Bruyères, Ollie?
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #13 on: 08:56:15, 18-03-2008 » |
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No, La fille aux chevaux de linge is quite byeond me. As is Gruyères, alas. You'd be surprised how tricky all that stuff is for the unschooled finger. Des pas sur la neige at least sits still long enough that I can take aim.
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