IgnorantRockFan
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« on: 12:57:06, 09-08-2008 » |
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Can somebody explain what this is, in words that a bear of very little brain could understand?
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Allegro, ma non tanto
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #1 on: 13:02:14, 09-08-2008 » |
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Think of a wind or brass player rolling their tongue whilst exhaling into their instrument, IRF: that's how I understand it, but I'm sure an expert will be along soon to confirm or deny....
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Kittybriton
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« Reply #2 on: 13:02:46, 09-08-2008 » |
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Having had no formal training, I may be completely wrong, but as I understand it, it's similar to the effect of "rolling" your "r's". Produces a very rapidly interrupted airflow.
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Click me -> About meor me -> my handmade storeNo, I'm not a complete idiot. I'm only a halfwit. In fact I'm actually a catfish.
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autoharp
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« Reply #3 on: 14:12:29, 09-08-2008 » |
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Here's an article that should help. http://www.nuoboe.com/html/fluttertongue.htmlSurprisingly, this is written in relation to the oboe, which conventional wisdom dictates is the wind instrument to/on which it is least suited/most difficult. Rolling "r's" is the way, but for those like myself who can't do that, an aggressive gargle is a reasonable alternative. Earliest use is probably in Strauss's Don Quixote, lots of it in music by the Second Viennese School but probably most effective in film suites by Hanns Eisler. And jazz, of course. Particularly effective on flute and mid-registers of brass instruments. Plenty of rather strange and unsuitable uses by composers in the 20th century - one rather puzzling example by Igor in The rite of spring involves oboes and fast chromatic scales.
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« Last Edit: 14:14:31, 09-08-2008 by autoharp »
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #4 on: 14:25:28, 09-08-2008 » |
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Spectacular use of it in the Dies Irae (middle) movement of Britten's Sinfonia da Requiem, too, where the sound forms an integral part of the whole span, from the opening ghostly tattoos of the flutes through to its climax, where virtually everything that can perform a flutter tongue does so simultaneously.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #5 on: 14:36:38, 09-08-2008 » |
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Plenty of rather strange and unsuitable uses by composers in the 20th century And the 21st (one tries one's best anyway)
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Turfan Fragment
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« Reply #6 on: 15:56:14, 09-08-2008 » |
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probably most effective in film suites by Hanns Eisler.
This gives me pause. Which film suites by Hanns Eisler?
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autoharp
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« Reply #7 on: 17:10:54, 09-08-2008 » |
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probably most effective in film suites by Hanns Eisler.
This gives me pause. Which film suites by Hanns Eisler? I'm thinking of works such as those featured on http://www.amazon.com/Hanns-Eisler-Works-Orchestra-Vol/dp/B0000035V6/ref=pd_sim_m_3Nos. 2 (Niemansland) + 3 (Kuhle Wampe) are probably the best known, or at least feature the best known Eisler material (the odd mass song). My memory of the fluttertonguing is probably exaggerated by the brass being muted much of the time.
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #8 on: 23:55:30, 09-08-2008 » |
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Weill sometimes marks flutter-tonguing, but I'm only aware of it in his works after his relocation in the USA - it's marked in the trumpet part of "I'm A Stranger Here Myself!" (ONE TOUCH OF VENUS), for example. Spoliansky (who must have known Weill in Berlin, presumably) uses it in saxophone parts in some of his screen musicals - but sparingly.
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House" - Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #9 on: 01:49:54, 10-08-2008 » |
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The main two methods I know for clarinet correspond more or less to Italian/Spanish and French 'r's respectively (not the spoken version of the latter which I'm told is usually unvoiced and not much use for the purpose since it doesn't have any discernible repeated impulses, but a voiced version which sounds pretty weird if you use it while speaking... but if you sing rien de rien, je ne regrette rien with it, it sounds oddly familiar).
The former is probably more standard but the latter can be very nice as well - for me it's suited to quieter playing and the iterations are a little slower. Some composers ask for both of course.
There's a school of thought which suggests Stravinsky didn't know exactly what he was asking for in the flatterzunge markings in the Rite of Spring and actually wanted the staccato runs to sound like what they look like. I don't know chapter and verse for this one (or even if there's actually any chapter and verse to be found).
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« Last Edit: 01:52:26, 10-08-2008 by oliver sudden »
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Eruanto
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« Reply #10 on: 12:46:42, 10-08-2008 » |
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A bit small and blurred, but the Flttzgs are there, on the 2nd and 4th lines (and further down). What does he expect the 2nd and 3rd Fl. gr.'s to do? That looks a perfectly adequate depiction of a flttzg to me.
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"It is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set"
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richard barrett
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« Reply #11 on: 14:16:37, 10-08-2008 » |
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I have a feeling he might indeed have not known what he was asking for, since staccato and Flatterzunge are strange bedfellows at best (the saxophonist John Butcher can make a convincing combination of the two but this sound is hardly what Stravinsky would have had in mind I think), and at the speed of that passage hard to imagine at all. I suspect he was wanting rapid triple-tonguing in the staccato runs, and 32nd-note iterations in the second and third flutes.
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autoharp
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« Reply #12 on: 18:57:35, 10-08-2008 » |
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I suspect he was wanting rapid triple-tonguing in the staccato runs That would be a tad optimistic for an oboist, though, wouldn't it? (e.g., in the opening section of the work). Can any oboists tell us the answer? Does Stravinsky do this sort of thing in other works?
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martle
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« Reply #13 on: 20:12:49, 10-08-2008 » |
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A lapsed oboist writes:
Not at all impossible. Difficult, yes.
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Green. Always green.
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