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Author Topic: Instrumental and vocal teaching  (Read 989 times)
Ian Pace
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« Reply #15 on: 17:39:02, 01-04-2007 »

It is very interesting about Beethoven Ian. I think he used more legato than Mozart (Mozart's technique was much like harpsichord). 

Most definitely, and he pioneered new conventions of technique in this respect, also with respect to notation - at least according to Czerny (though it's not out of the question that this might be Czerny's agenda as much as Beethoven's), when a series of notes have no slurs or phrasing marks, the default touch is legato, whereas in Haydn and Mozart scholars have pretty definitively concluded that the convention then would be non legato.

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What did he say about playing.

There's lots of stuff in three books in particular, Sandra Rosenbloom's Performance Practices in Classical Piano Music: Their Principles and Applications, William S. Newman's Beethoven on Beethoven: Playing His Piano Music His Way (awful title, but wonderful book), and George Barth's The Pianist as Orator, the latter looking in particular at the conflicting accounts of Beethoven's playing by Czerny and Schindler. I have all of these, and will try to dig some stuff out from them later.

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I think he said to Czerny to not stop his nephew at every little mistake he plays, but let him play on. He was also baffled at huge tractats that piano theoreticians wrote. He thought it was much easier than that.

Yes, indeed.

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Yes, the concept of weight is very misleading. In fact one doesn't feel weight when things go well. Was it Deppe who said that the arm should be like a feather.

Deppe pioneered the 'free fall' technique (about which one can read quite a bit in the book by my own teacher, György Sándor, On Piano Playing: Motion, Sound and Expression, though Sándor doesn't specifically refer to Deppe. This technique is sometimes mistakenly taken to represent 'weight technique', when really it is 'gravity technique', quite a different thing. 'Weight technique' was pioneered in particular by Rudolf Breithaupt in his book Die Grundlage der natürliche Klaviertechnik (1905), and was influential on a number of pianists including Teresa Carreńo and later Claudio Arrau.

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I also like it when they talk about turning the arm little at a time so by the time one is on say E (playing C major scale with the right hand) the thumb is resting on the key already.

Couldn't agree more, a far more economical approach than the 'thumb under' technique.

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In arpeggios it is even more important to turn hand out without turning elbows. It sounds very cumbersome.

That occurs when pianists move the elbow without also moving the wrist, so they have to make vastly over-extravagant motions. A composite lateral motion of the wrist and elbow enables the hand to turn outwards in the manner you describe.

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I think arm has connecting use to bring fingers to the right places.

Often at a first lesson I ask a student where they think their finger muscles lead to. Some point at the knuckles, others at the wrist, few seem to know that they extend right along the forearm towards the elbow. A finger is an extension of its forearm muscle, and the position of the wrist, as affects whether such a muscle is bent or not (thus causing friction) significantly affects the freedom and flexibility of each finger. The fingers can never be separated entirely from the arm, whatever generations of coins on wrist, books under elbows, teachers will say.

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Many teachers talked to me about sensitivity in the finger tip. Now a friend tells me about harpsichord playing and that the touch is even lighter. (I was always afraid of superficial touch).

I'd say that it's the sensitivity in the joints (those between the phalanxes of the fingers, the knuckle joints, the wrist, even the elbow joint) that counts in terms the way in which the pressure on the key at the moment of impact is affected.

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I like it what you write about slow damping mechanism in Chopin's pianos. I did not hear about that. This is a good reason to use finger legato and not pedal. A lot of the time one can not use pedal and has to use fingers.
I was tought not to rely on pedal too much.

Well, do bear in mind that Chopin's pedalling indications are very extravagant indeed (though the somewhat lesser sustaining power of the instruments he knew should be taken into account). As well as the common 'use the pedal most of the time, change with every harmony' approach that has been drilled into many students the world round, there were a wide range of different approaches to pedalling in the 19th century (and afterwards), some employing more pedal than is now common, some employing less.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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« Reply #16 on: 17:54:51, 01-04-2007 »

One of my teachers used to say: the door opens and closes (meaning under pit of your arm). I found this sometimes useful. Many students struggle with notes and don't want to listen.

I thought that sensitive finger tips are important. Bach played with touch that each finger drew back toward the palm of one hand for subtle playing. (small shades and lights).
About knuckles I was told that they support the finger and should not collapse or should be visible).
All that is all well when said, but when one is playing it is another matter.
Some people play with flat fingers and are all right (Horowitz). Some people think that it is Russian school to play with flat fingers. There is no such thing as Russian piano school because there are so many different teachers and approaches. There is a huge pool from which to select different pianists because there are so many of them.

Pedal could be half pedals, quarter pedals etc.
Is György Sándor from Hungary? What kind of things did he teach you and at what age did you study with him. Were you mature pianist at a time or a beginner?

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Ian Pace
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« Reply #17 on: 18:06:59, 01-04-2007 »

Some people think that it is Russian school to play with flat fingers. There is no such thing as Russian piano school because there are so many different teachers and approaches. There is a huge pool from which to select different pianists because there are so many of them.

Sure, but I've heard some suggest that while there isn't a single 'Russian school', one can reasonably identify a group of schools, particularly those influenced by the teachings of such prominent teachers as Blumenfeld, Neuhaus, Igumonov, and so on?

Some reasonably recent Russian pianists I suppose one might associate with what's seen in the West as a 'typical Russian school' might be Gavrilov, Berezovsky or Kissin, though I realise there are other players extremely different (for example Toradze, Batagov, Afanassiev or Tverskaya!).

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Pedal could be half pedals, quarter pedals etc.

Very much so. When composers notate those nowadays, however, the results differ from instrument to instrument.

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Is György Sándor from Hungary?

Yes, he was born in Budapest in 1912, though moved to the US in the 1930s, where he remained for the rest of his life. Here is an obituary to which I contributed a section - http://news.independent.co.uk/people/obituaries/article334785.ece

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What kind of things did he teach you and at what age did you study with him. Were you mature pianist at a time or a beginner?

I studied with him in my early 20s, so as a mature pianist, but for some time before then I had known his book, which I think is the best of its type, and so was well familiar with his methods which I had adopted in many respects. He taught many things, we worked on a broad range of repertoire, some of his musical thinking I find nowadays a little narrow, very rooted in a particular late romantic/early modern attitude which is applied across the board without really taking much account of stylistic and idiomatic differences. Also he was resolutely unsympathetic both to post-1945 music and to historically-informed performance, both of which are two of my primary interests. But I learned a lot from him, and admire his playing greatly.
« Last Edit: 18:10:27, 01-04-2007 by Ian Pace » Logged

'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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« Reply #18 on: 19:11:27, 01-04-2007 »

Russia has a big tradition of playing piano. However, not all people are tought by best teachers. There are many bad piano teachers there too like everywhere else.
Yes, all those pianists have Russian school (in good sense of the word). Pletnev is very good pianist and also very much Russian school. Sometimes Russian pianists now days raise their schoulders, which is not good as it cuts on the use of the arm. May be Sokolov (who was tought by Nickolaev in St. Peterburg) has perfect technique (some say). Perhaps they have better piano school in St. Peterburg, I don't know. They are much more arrogant from So Petersburg, though they can be arrogant if they are from Moscow too.
It is strange that György Sándor played a lot of Bartok and still did not like contemporary composers. Bartok sounds very contemporary to me in some of his music.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #19 on: 19:20:49, 01-04-2007 »

It is strange that György Sándor played a lot of Bartok and still did not like contemporary composers. Bartok sounds very contemporary to me in some of his music.

Basically he had no time for music which was not organised around tonal centres, which he was adamant Bartok was, in all of his pieces. Some tried to persuade him to play Ligeti, but he couldn't stand the music, so never did.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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