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Author Topic: The piano thread  (Read 7941 times)
trained-pianist
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« Reply #105 on: 13:16:27, 07-05-2007 »

I think I saw Stravinsky four hands pieces that were for three hands, but may be I am like usually confused.
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #106 on: 14:01:28, 07-05-2007 »

Piano two feet - extracted from Sydney Grew's masterly work "The Art of the Player-Piano":

"Pedalling is for the player-pianist what breathing is for the singer and bowing for the violinist, or - to draw illustration from the instrument out of which the player arose - what finger-touch is for the pianist. The pedalling, indeed, is the touch, "direct" when unmodified by any mechanical appliance, "controlled" when modified by the Touch-buttons or Control-levers. The various appliances manipulated by the fingers are vital in the organism of the player, and the use of them is essential in performance; but these are all secondary to the Pedals, and the effects derived from the appliances (except perhaps from the Sustaining-lever) are all secondary to the effects derived from the Pedals, and if your pedalling is wrong, your manipulation of the appliances cannot put matters right. At base the Art of the Player is pedalling, whether the detail under consideration be the marking of metre, the production of tone, the individualising of parts, phrasing, the emphasising of accents, or the presentation of music in vast rhythmic proportion.

"The player-pianist caresses the pedals. He controls them as a driver controls high-spirited horses. He transmits to them the subtle spirit of the movement which music sets dancing through his soul. He employs them with the delicacy with which the sculptor employs his tools; he also hews with them, as the woodsman drives into the tree with his axe. He treats them as the conductor treats his bāton, marking not only the beats, but the rhythm also, and effecting phrasing, tone contrast and quality, climax, and the thousand-and-one details of effect - objective and subjective - which go to the making of musical performance. The Pedals are as the centre of a nerve system, from which are radiated commands to every part of the instrument - the most delicately intimate, as well as broadest and most sweeping."
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autoharp
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« Reply #107 on: 14:42:12, 07-05-2007 »

Siddo - not really relevant to a piano thread is it ? Start a pianola thread, perhaps !
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roslynmuse
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« Reply #108 on: 14:45:01, 07-05-2007 »

Ravel Frontispice - for five hands (lots of fives throughout it actually)
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autoharp
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« Reply #109 on: 14:55:41, 07-05-2007 »

Now that's a piece almost certainly originally composed for pianola !

(Article by Rex Lawson in The Pianola Journal vol 2 - 1989)
« Last Edit: 14:58:38, 07-05-2007 by autoharp » Logged
trained-pianist
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« Reply #110 on: 16:18:45, 07-05-2007 »

This excerpt from Sydney Grew work "The Art of the Player-Piano" is interesting. This work is new to me.

While his description of piano playing useful it is not complete. There is some interesting points for me in the excerpt.
I never saw anybody speak so well about pedal playing. I myself am not half or quarter pedal player. Push it all the way I think could be my moto. I like late pedal too which I am not sure is good or bad. I guess it depends on the piece.
There could be even direct pedal (in waltz for example). May be I am using the wrong word in my translation from my own language. How do you call that on the beat pedal?
I never saw anybody explain to me what they mean by sensitive pedal. Caressing the keys is an expression that I like, but I never thought about caressing pedal.
I want to thank Mr Sydney Grew for his interesting post.
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autoharp
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« Reply #111 on: 16:33:25, 07-05-2007 »

tp - Sydney Grew's quote about pedals refers to those of the player-piano/pianola - there's a link below. They have a very different function to those of a normal piano !

http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:Xu09OrxH_j0J:www.wyastone.co.uk/nrl/gp_intro.html+sydney+grew+player-piano&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=8&gl=uk&ie=UTF-8
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trained-pianist
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« Reply #112 on: 17:21:10, 07-05-2007 »

Member autoharp posted an interesting site.
I still find the description about how to use (or love) pedals and all mechanics of the piano very interesting.
One can listen to the piano as the sound make its way on to the string (through so many layers).
Pedals should be working properly and no sqeeks should be heard. But imagine how the pedals move and open dampers and how the piano breathes like a person or an animal. That could be useful.
I think the pianola is the piano that can play from rolls. Also I have seen some instruments that can play rolls and be played by pianists too. I hope other mamebers write something on this matter. j
We all know what Chopin said about pedal I think he was talkin gabout right pedal). I can not quote him, but he said that pedals are the soul of the piano. May be the honorable members can correct me if I am wrong.

I notice that many students drop the right pedal to quickly. May be it is important to develop sensetivity in the foot by listening carefully what comes out from the belly of the beast (piano). I find the discussion about pedal very useful.
There was a good book in Russian language by Golubovskaya on Pedal. The whole book (paper back) devoted to problems of pedaling and musical examples from piano repertoire.
« Last Edit: 19:46:06, 07-05-2007 by trained-pianist » Logged
trained-pianist
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« Reply #113 on: 07:55:44, 08-05-2007 »

Sorry to write so soon after my previous message, but I want to ask members what they think about playing studies.

I played studies when I was young. It was part of the curriculum anyway all the way through college.
One may say why play studies when there are so much music one can play and use it for technique development.

Some pianists (Rachmaninoff) played studies all their life. Some did not. It is individual.
Recently I had an itch to play Studies. It feels good to give fingers their dose of good exercise. In pieces combinations are awkward sometimes and one does not pay attention how fingers really work and production of sound.
I have Czerny op. 740 to play and I have Moszkowski that I particularly like (op.01, no. 5).

From Camada I  have a good book of studies for grade 9 and 10 . There are Mendelssohn Studies (Song withoug Words) , Handel Lesson, MacDowell Dance of the Gnomes, Handel Prelude, Chopin Study no 8, Bartok Bagatelle op.10 no 2, Scriabin Prelude for the left hand (very good study), Saint-Saens Prelude for the Left Hand, Rachmaninoff Etude-Tableau etc.

Do people have any thoughts on the subject of studies? Am I strange today to play Czerny and Moszkowski today?
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Chafing Dish
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« Reply #114 on: 10:48:46, 08-05-2007 »

Many of the composers you mention report the habit of reading books and periodicals while playing their studies. I presume this means that none of them were Buddhists, practicing mindfully.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #115 on: 11:02:16, 08-05-2007 »

Unless they were reading this.



Lest that seem overly flippant, I would have thought (not being a pianist however) that well-conceived studies ought to be regularly practised, giving, as they ought to, a more generalised and systematic programme of exercises than any individual piece (which almost inevitably is going to attract the concentration to some techniques at the expense of others) is going to do. Derek Bailey used to practise improvisation by playing along to the radio (which station though, I wonder, maybe someone knows) which I suppose is a "study" in developing spontaneous reactions to unpredictable events.
« Last Edit: 11:08:03, 08-05-2007 by richard barrett » Logged
Daniel
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« Reply #116 on: 12:12:41, 08-05-2007 »

Do people have any thoughts on the subject of studies? Am I strange today to play Czerny and Moszkowski today?


I personally think how useful an exercise is depends on your attitude towards it.
 
If you don't find it interesting then it won't be of much use. However, if you engage with it intelligently (and enthusiatically) as you seem to be, I think it can be a useful way of isolating and working on a particular technical aspect.

I suppose what I am talking about there is things like the Hanon studies, but things like the Moskowski are proper pieces of music, which to me makes a big difference as you have a musical context. You are not just doing musical press-ups, which are to me slightly meaningless (and sometimes harmful), as I think piano technique is less about muscle power than muscle use.

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trained-pianist
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« Reply #117 on: 12:47:34, 08-05-2007 »

Thank you everybody for your reply.
You all said very useful things for me (just hit the bull in his eye (how do you say that?).
I know it was not recommended to read and play at the same time, but as it happens Chopin's contemporary Kallbrener (I can not spell his name, sorry) was right because it one distract his mind a little one can relax. If one tries to relax he can make himself be more tense.

This mind book that Richard recommends would be good for me. My mind is very tricky and I don't understand it often. It plays games and tricks with me and since I am not too intelligent it is difficult to control it.

It would be interesting to inversigate different books abaut the subject of playing piano and mind.

Daniel's posts are always very perseptive (like other posters). The attitude is all important. I happend to like gymnastic and acrobatic and don't mind run dizzily about.
I felt I wanted to give my fingers good grounding and see if I still control them well.
Leshetizky was a good teacher. All his students had to play Liszt, but Schnabel. He could see that it is not good for Schnabel and would not do anything positive for his student.

Thank you all so very much.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #118 on: 13:33:30, 08-05-2007 »

Many of the composers you mention report the habit of reading books and periodicals while playing their studies. I presume this means that none of them were Buddhists, practicing mindfully.

That's one reason I'm very sceptical about exercises, at least when practised in large quantities - they encourage mechanical, unthinking practice, rigid approaches to rhythm (which has its place of course, but not necessarily as the norm) and so on. For almost any technical issue, one can find a passage or passages of music in which it appears, which one can work on - if such things can't be found anywhere, why is it a technical issue? The sorts of exercises that involve holding down four fingers and lifting the fifth forcibly, without moving the wrist, are the quickest road to tendonitis you could ask for. One teacher at Juilliard forced all her students to practise these; some of them developed irrepairable muscular problems as a result, and launched lawsuits against her as a result. As my teacher said about the fact that she did have quite a few good students 'they must have been really good, if they could still play the piano after studying with her' (he could be a real bitch at times Wink ).
« Last Edit: 23:01:38, 08-05-2007 by Ian Pace » Logged

'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
time_is_now
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« Reply #119 on: 13:58:15, 08-05-2007 »

Cyril Smith and Phyliss Selick, a husband/wife piano duo who performed from the 40s until Cyril's death in the 70s. Cyril lost the use of his left hand thanks to a stroke, but they continued to perform with three hands! Arnold wrote a concerto for them (I played it once myself)

Where did you get the extra hand, martle?!?
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