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Author Topic: (Preludes &) Fugues  (Read 2076 times)
ahinton
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« Reply #75 on: 05:59:27, 28-06-2007 »

I would have thought, Ian, having just read a book about Stalin, that it would be the left who would be unwilling to mention things like torture... Or do you all still think he was a nice chap?
Stalin was a horrific mass murderer to be compared with Hitler, as was Mao. Overall, those on the left who tended to think positively of either were artists, certain types of fashionable intellectuals, and public school types. Genuine workers are usually much less enamoured of cults of personality around those in power. In no way can the regimes run by Stalin and Mao be called 'socialist' in any meaningful sense.

If you want to take up issues of the left's being soft on Stalin, I'm not your man - I'd agree that it has been the case. However, the right are very loud on torture committed by regimes claiming socialist credentials, but very silent on when that happens in regimes with whom the West has amicable business dealings.
I'm with you on all of this. The actions of Mao have perhaps been more successfully covered up for longer than those of Stalin and Hitler, although far more of the horrific truth is out nowadays and, it would seem, on body count alone, Mao holds the world record by some distance. There have been others, of course - all too many, indeed - but these three take the lion's share of mass murder between them; it is an especially sad fact of life that this kind of activity knows no right and left boundaries, as I know you appreciate well.

Now, swiftly back to fugues, I suggest!...

Best,

Alistair
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ahinton
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« Reply #76 on: 06:01:53, 28-06-2007 »

A typically fawning and hagiographic faux-explanation of Stravinsky's sickening hebephrenic, psychotic, infantile, unmediated fascism instantiated by privileging certain (but not all) rhythmic tropes aping the schema of catatonia induced by the crushing effects of late...
Let's see - are you talking about Hinton on Sorabji, or is this adapted from a set of guidelines on torture? Wink
I don't quite think so (if I may say so), although, that said, your emoticon (what a horrid word!) use did not go unnoticed(!)...

Best,

Alistair
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increpatio
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« Reply #77 on: 06:10:52, 28-06-2007 »

... emoticon (what a horrid word!) ...

But, nonetheless, better than "smiley"?
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ahinton
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« Reply #78 on: 06:41:09, 28-06-2007 »

... emoticon (what a horrid word!) ...

But, nonetheless, better than "smiley"?
Pretty much on the same level, I'd say...

Best,

Alistair
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richard barrett
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« Reply #79 on: 08:17:08, 28-06-2007 »

So... what about Sorabji's fugues, Alistair? Earlier I described them as "gruelling", though as you know I'm very interested in Sorabji's music: somehow I get the impression that I'm not listening properly or something, because they do seem somewhat arid relative to the more opulent movements which generally surround them. Also, as you've pointed out before, they increase in scale and in weight relative to the other sections of a given work up until the OC in 1930 and afterwards seem to become less prevalent. Is this maybe because he'd taken the form as far as it would go (maybe further) in that work?
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ahinton
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« Reply #80 on: 09:02:52, 28-06-2007 »

So... what about Sorabji's fugues, Alistair? Earlier I described them as "gruelling", though as you know I'm very interested in Sorabji's music: somehow I get the impression that I'm not listening properly or something, because they do seem somewhat arid relative to the more opulent movements which generally surround them. Also, as you've pointed out before, they increase in scale and in weight relative to the other sections of a given work up until the OC in 1930 and afterwards seem to become less prevalent. Is this maybe because he'd taken the form as far as it would go (maybe further) in that work?
Fugue first preoccupied Sorabji in the early 1920s, his first known example being the somewhat modest one from his relatively short piano work Prelude Interlude and Fugue. The first really important one is the double fugue that comprises the central thrust of his First Organ Symphony and is perhaps the only case in his work of a fugue forming a part, rather than the whole, of a movement (his later coda-stretti really being parts of the fugues that precede them). Thereafter, there is a large on in his Dies Iræ variations completed in 1926 and one to close his First Toccata two years later (this latter almost containing suggestions of a "pilot-piece" for OC). And that's it, before OC itself (excepting his plans for the unfinished Passacaglia of 1929, which was to comprise a prelude, a passacaglia, a cadenza and a fugue but of which he got only as far as variation 76 of the passacaglia - the work has recently been edited and completed by Alexander Abercrombie). I'm not so sure, however, (and did I really sy so?!) that it's correct to suggest that his pre-OC fugues "increase in scale and in weight relative to the other sections of a given work", since only the first part of that is really true; the fugues get larger, but then so does what surrounds them.

OC is very much the exception in Sorabji's output where fugues are concerned, in that it is his only work punctuated by a series of fugues (four, in this work, as you know); the motivation for this (and indeed certain other characteristics of OC) undoubtedly had its roots in Busoni's Fantasia Contrappuntistica. The fugues of OC are themselves cumulative in that the first has just the one subject and the others are double, triple and quadruple fugues respectively. The principal character of the first fugue (whose subject is the shortest of them all in OC) is that of severity and austerity and an examination of the subjects of the others reveals a gradually increasing contrast between them, to the point at which the four in the final fugue are really quite unlike one another.

Thereafter, Sorabji's fugal preoccupations led him often to conclude large-scale pieces with fugues which were often themselves on quite an ambitious scale, though never again after OC did he infuse any single work with such a preponderance of fugal writing. That said, OC was much nearer the beginning than the end of his fugal explorations; the last of which is to be found in his variations and fugue on a theme of Rimsky-Korsakov entitled Il Grido del Gallino d'Oro, which postdates OC by almost half a century.

The principal defining character that sets Sorabji's fugues apart from much of his other writing is the rhythmic simplicity, rarely in any of his fugues are there any rhythm patterns more complex than might be found in Bach or Beethoven. Sorabji often found himself working out his fugues by making much use of inversions, cancrizans and cancrizans inversions of his subjects and this is one of his fugal persuasions that appears to have prompted some listeners (evidently including yourself) to criticise his fugues for their perceived aridity; I am by no means convinced by this, being mindful of the fact that a less than adequate performance of any one of them is far more likely to convey such an impression than is the music itself (and I've heard ample evidence of this factor in different performances of other composers' fugues to corroborate this!). Others have expressed concern at the sheer length and pitch range of some of Sorabji's fugue subjects, but these are, I think, characteristics of Sorabji's approach to fugue that set him apart from most other writers of fugues rather than mere causes for concerned perplexity.

At this point, I think that the best thing I can do is to defer to Jonathan Powell, who will hopefully record OC before too long (in my 'umble opinion, he ought to have done that already!)...

Best,

Alistair
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #81 on: 11:05:09, 28-06-2007 »

. . . some of the most hair-raising clashes in Bach's output . . . I don't sit at the piano and play half-diminished seventh chords all day. . . (I imagine Sydney Grew doing so . . .)

We believe Bach did so as well! Consider him here at his most Wagnerian (two flats by the way):


And yes but to get a clearer scan we then turned to the Urtext and discovered this:



The effect is a little different is it not? We turned then to Tovey but he agrees with the Urtext. What interesting notes he always writes about these fugues! "Inversion in the tenth," he tells us, "will not by itself produce any special new harmonic character; but its possibility means that either or both members of a combination of melodies can be doubled in thirds or sixths, a luxury easily afforded by coloratur-singing above the enslaved and degraded basses of early nineteenth-century Italian opera, but very hardly to be earned and highly to be prized in counterpoint where every note has its thematic rights and duties."

We have indeed a fourth edition, the "Instruktive Ausgabe von Bruno Mugellini" - so useful for analysis! - and he too agrees with the Urtext in regard to this passage. So how then did our first example come about? Ah, we see it now: "Edited and Revised by Carl Czerny." Anyway Bach's beautiful half-diminished seventh after the bar line is our real point and that remains in all versions. (We have even a fifth! - that edited by Harold Brooke.)

The sequence comes from Fugue 16 of Book 2.
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #82 on: 11:11:47, 28-06-2007 »

Here are five further examples of Bach's so effective half-diminished sevenths in his Forty-Eight.

1) in Fugue 4 of the First Book:



2) in Fugue 5 of the First Book, with great emphasis:



3) in Fugue 16 of the First Book. The chord at C sounds like something straight out of Schoenberg's First Chamber Symphony, and the half-diminished seventh comes again right after the bar-line (at D:



4) in Prelude 13 of the Second Book the chord is used at E, quite fleetingly but very definitely, as part of one of Bach's many inventive cadences:



5) finally (for now) we observe its typically telling use at F as a passing but by no means insignificant note in Fugue 17 of the Second Book:



Of course there are many more examples among the many works of this greatest of all composers.
« Last Edit: 13:08:37, 28-06-2007 by Sydney Grew » Logged
Ian Pace
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« Reply #83 on: 11:46:04, 28-06-2007 »

We wish to thank Member Grew for his illuminating comments and examples, and also second his positive sentiments on Tovey, a writer on music whose work has not always received its due in recent times.
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SimonSagt!
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« Reply #84 on: 00:29:06, 29-06-2007 »

We wish to thank Member Grew for his illuminating comments and examples, and also second his positive sentiments on Tovey, a writer on music whose work has not always received its due in recent times.

Seconded. I'm afraid I was unable to contribute much once the thread devoloped towards Sorabji.

But I learned, so thanks to all.

TBC....
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richard barrett
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« Reply #85 on: 00:49:02, 29-06-2007 »

Sorabji often found himself working out his fugues by making much use of inversions, cancrizans and cancrizans inversions of his subjects and this is one of his fugal persuasions that appears to have prompted some listeners (evidently including yourself) to criticise his fugues for their perceived aridity
I don't think that's the problem for me, I think it's more to do firstly with what I hear as a somewhat colourless and monotonous harmonic aspect to these fugues (though fugues aren't supposed to be riots of colour I suppose), an impression which lies behind my earlier ponderings as to whether a fugue without functional tonal harmony isn't somehow a contradiction in terms; and secondly with the way that Sorabji places his fugues (in the works that I know) in final position as the culmination of the enormous work that's gone before (I think particularly of the First Toccata and the Fourth Sonata (in both of which cases we have the advantage of being able to hear Jonathan's interpretations) as well as OC) whereas their comparatively restricted textural and rhythmical range makes it difficult for me to hear them in that way. I'm working on it though.
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eruanto
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« Reply #86 on: 00:59:37, 29-06-2007 »

Tovey, a writer on music whose work has not always received its due in recent times.

I quote from the renownéd Tovey's Essays in Musical Analysis (1935-9) (i think), where he talks at length on the subject of symphonies by CPE Bach.

(apologies for the neither prelude- nor fugue-motivated nature of this post)

"The symphonies of Philipp Emanuel Bach beautifully display the gradual emancipation of the orchestra from its slave-state dependence on the continuo. The emancipation was not the philanthropic process of emancipating slaves. It was the still nobler and more austere problem of teaching the orchestra, including the most aristocratic solo instruments, to serve themselves."

Now, forgive me, but I find the tone and style of the language he uses pretty laughable to be honest. It's just all so over-the-top (and in this modern age the words 'out of touch' don't do it justice). Not that I'm advocating being in touch at all, and of course many of his writings still represent the top of their field, but the above is, I hope, a reason why he is not so much appreciated.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #87 on: 01:02:55, 29-06-2007 »

"The symphonies of Philipp Emanuel Bach beautifully display the gradual emancipation of the orchestra from its slave-state dependence on the continuo. The emancipation was not the philanthropic process of emancipating slaves. It was the still nobler and more austere problem of teaching the orchestra, including the most aristocratic solo instruments, to serve themselves."

Now, forgive me, but I find the tone and style of the language he uses pretty laughable to be honest. It's just all so over-the-top (and in this modern age the words 'out of touch' don't do it justice). Not that I'm advocating being in touch at all, and of course many of his writings still represent the top of their field, but the above is, I hope, a reason why he is not so much appreciated.
Tovey describes what was going on very appropriately; where I would differ is in the value judgement he applies - the assertion that for the 'aristocratic' instruments to 'serve themselves' is a 'still nobler and more austere problem' demands more interrogation.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
oliver sudden
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« Reply #88 on: 01:09:36, 29-06-2007 »

But one could hardly argue against 'noble' as a singularly appropriate term for it! That would be another value judgement perhaps...  Cheesy
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #89 on: 01:10:32, 29-06-2007 »

But one could hardly argue against 'noble' as a singularly appropriate term for it! That would be another value judgement perhaps...  Cheesy
Might it then require a capital 'N' to close a possible loophole?  Grin
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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