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ahinton
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« Reply #120 on: 13:22:15, 09-08-2007 » |
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do you think that, where the reception of much Western Art-music is concerned, there is a prevalence among those who listen to it with reasonable frequency to prioritise the question "what does this music do for me personally?" over "what is the position and rôle of this music in society?" Surely that is going to depend on where you are located in the world when you ask the question? I occasionally work in parts of Asia where "Western" Art-music is an imported phenomenon which has no roots within the local culture. Any following it may have is as a result of either (a) any intrinsic merit as "art" this music might have for those with eclectic tastes and the time/curiosity/financial resources* to try it (b) the dog-ends of "cultural-imperialism" by countries who have formerly attempted to hold sway in these areas (c) something rather similar to (b) that results from disatisfaction with the way the local Govt is running things, and a perverse and unfocussed belief that whatever they are promoting is the opposite of "what is actually any good". I am consistently aware when I am in these places that "western art-music" is two steps removed from their own world of experiences and reference-points (sometimes due to restricted exposure to it, and sometimes because - as in China during the Cultural Revolution - it's actually been banned). In addition to all the undoubtedly true and important stuff above, I'd just add that, albeit to a lesser degree, this sort of phenomenon might be true in parts of Western society as well? In my locality of East Croydon, there is a major concert hall (Fairfield), which mostly puts on popular classics, but I would guess that for a great number of young people here, popular music and clubbing are more of the norm in terms of their own local culture, and 'Western art-music' might be a highly alien phenomenon for many of them - one that exists in proximity to them, but not one with which they strongly self-identify. Mightn't they be also likely to consider the music more in terms of the second question (albeit perhaps not framing it in the same sort of language)? I read this immediately after posting my last one! Yet more valid and important points here. The problem now might be seen to be that the more one examines these various issues as raised by "Chafing Dish", Reiner and yourself and the more one accordingly realises that all manner of complications are inherent in a consideration of such basic questions as I asked, the harder it is likely to become to see the wood for the trees. The only thing that I would add you your own reference to "popular music and clubbing" in your area (although it's probably no different in Chingford!) that might bring abit of it back to the point from which I tried to start is to ask what you think about the extent, if any, to which those who participate in these activities give, or even want to think about giving, consideration to the rôle of that kind of music in society as distinct (if indeed is is or can be distinct) from what it may do for each individual. Best, Alistair |
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ahinton
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« Reply #121 on: 13:23:30, 09-08-2007 » |
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(by the way, as the shocking figures to be observed when certain composers mount the scales seems no longer to be the principal item of discussion, should this all be moved to another thread - perhaps with posts shifted there?)
Yes. Should we try to get a fat composer to do it? Best, Alistair |
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Baziron
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« Reply #122 on: 13:37:49, 09-08-2007 » |
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(by the way, as the shocking figures to be observed when certain composers mount the scales seems no longer to be the principal item of discussion, should this all be moved to another thread - perhaps with posts shifted there?)
Yes. Should we try to get a fat composer to do it? Best, Alistair I think somebody already did this by starting the "Fat conductor" thread (see message #1 there) because THIS thread had now been hijacked!! Baz |
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #123 on: 14:35:31, 09-08-2007 » |
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. . . I inaugurated a dedicated BMus in Jazz and Popular Music. The intake of students is very good . . . May we say that we find the above-mentioned inauguration absolutely absurd? "Jazz and Popular Music" are no more than devices which enable unthinking buffoons to clap their hands off the beat in public and imagine themselves thereby "happy". That's all. |
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autoharp
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« Reply #124 on: 14:36:37, 09-08-2007 » |
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hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #125 on: 14:44:32, 09-08-2007 » |
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I must grudgingly congratulate you, Syd - the implicit glove thrown-down in the opening message was that if we couldn't agree on establishing a hierarchy of composers on the subjective ranking of their "greatness", at least something as objectively measurable as their body-mass ought to be capable rational investigation leading to the crowning of a Fattest Composer. The fact that the Group couldn't even manage the musicological equivalent of a Guess The Weight Of The Cake competition without meandering into arcane speculation on the relationship of Art to Society means Bottom Marks for all, I fear  |
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
- Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
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Daniel
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« Reply #126 on: 15:01:06, 09-08-2007 » |
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. . . I inaugurated a dedicated BMus in Jazz and Popular Music. The intake of students is very good . . . May we say that we find the above-mentioned inauguration absolutely absurd? "Jazz and Popular Music" are no more than devices which enable unthinking buffoons to clap their hands off the beat in public and imagine themselves thereby "happy". That's all. Is the natural quality of "Jazz and Popular Music" next to the sharp attitude of Mr Grew here not a fine example of a false relation? I find that a good proportion of the Member's posts indeed have that considered quality of dissonance which sometimes has the ability to energise a thread and to launch it forward, much as it does in the context of music - a dissonance seeking a resolution. Mind you, I don't know what I'm talking about. |
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ahinton
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« Reply #127 on: 15:13:03, 09-08-2007 » |
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. . . I inaugurated a dedicated BMus in Jazz and Popular Music. The intake of students is very good . . . May we say that we find the above-mentioned inauguration absolutely absurd? "Jazz and Popular Music" are no more than devices which enable unthinking buffoons to clap their hands off the beat in public and imagine themselves thereby "happy". That's all. I have a suspicion that neither Anthony Braxton nor Oscar Peterson nor Miles Davis nor Sir Richard Rodney Bennett nor John Surman nor tens of thousands of other musicians who have contributed in diverse ways to the immensely rich field that is jazz would find it remotely possible to agree with you about that; for the record, I doubt that either Wavendon or Molde or Ronnie Scott's has ever had an audience of "unthinking buffoons" in any case and that one might be rather more likely to encounter one of those at a "Proms in the Park" kind of "event" (y'know, Vivaldi's Water Music, Rack Maninov's Pianna C'ncherto 'n' the 1812, innit...) Best, Alistair |
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ahinton
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« Reply #128 on: 15:15:10, 09-08-2007 » |
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I must grudgingly congratulate you, Syd - the implicit glove thrown-down in the opening message was that if we couldn't agree on establishing a hierarchy of composers on the subjective ranking of their "greatness", at least something as objectively measurable as their body-mass ought to be capable rational investigation leading to the crowning of a Fattest Composer. The fact that the Group couldn't even manage the musicological equivalent of a Guess The Weight Of The Cake competition without meandering into arcane speculation on the relationship of Art to Society means Bottom Marks for all, I fear Priceless! Best, The less-than-75kg. Alistair |
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ahinton
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« Reply #129 on: 15:17:32, 09-08-2007 » |
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Is the natural quality of "Jazz and Popular Music" next to the sharp attitude of Mr Grew here not a fine example of a false relation?
I think that it's more likely to produce flatulence, an affliction presumably not unknown to the fattest composer of all time, whoever he or she may or may not be or have been... Best, Alistair |
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ahinton
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« Reply #130 on: 15:20:46, 09-08-2007 » |
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The expression "fat is a feminist issue" might prompt me to wonder whether a "fattest new musicologist of all time (or at least of the last quarter century or so of it)" might constitute a suitable diversion at this point if I didn't know better. I do know better. I think...
Best,
Alistair
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Baziron
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« Reply #131 on: 15:24:12, 09-08-2007 » |
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. . . I inaugurated a dedicated BMus in Jazz and Popular Music. The intake of students is very good . . . May we say that we find the above-mentioned inauguration absolutely absurd? "Jazz and Popular Music" are no more than devices which enable unthinking buffoons to clap their hands off the beat in public and imagine themselves thereby "happy". That's all. Absolutely Syd! You tell the buffoons where to go!  |
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #132 on: 15:57:44, 09-08-2007 » |
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Is the natural quality of "Jazz and Popular Music" next to the sharp attitude of Mr Grew here not a fine example of a false relation? I find that a good proportion of the Member's posts indeed have that considered quality of dissonance which sometimes has the ability to energise a thread and to launch it forward, much as it does in the context of music - a dissonance seeking a resolution. In such a manner, Member Grew himself may be shocked if one were to suggest his posts serve a dialectical function, one that can transform the threads into something closer to the good Teddy's idea of atonal philosophy, a model of philosophy which accords in many ways with the atonal music produced by the composer he admired so much, one Arnold Schönberg, in particular the work he produced after the events of 1908?  |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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time_is_now
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« Reply #133 on: 16:02:33, 09-08-2007 » |
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Member Grew himself may be shocked Would a shocked member grow? Would a grown member shock? |
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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roslynmuse
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« Reply #134 on: 17:17:27, 09-08-2007 » |
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Member Grew himself may be shocked Would a shocked member grow? Would a grown member shock? He might grow into the fattest member of all time... |
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