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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #105 on: 21:21:08, 08-08-2007 » |
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I love these boards... where else would you find St Thomas Aquinas cited in a Guess The Weight Of The Fat Composer competition?  |
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
- Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
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MabelJane
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« Reply #106 on: 21:53:30, 08-08-2007 » |
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Hasn't anyone posted Fats Waller yet?  |
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Merely corroborative detail, intended to give artistic verisimilitude to an otherwise bald and unconvincing narrative.
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Baziron
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« Reply #107 on: 09:53:23, 09-08-2007 » |
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...what I'd ask of Baz, roslynmuse, t-i-n and anyone else is whether this current direction is a good thing or not, and if not, on what grounds they would argue for the maintenance of a prominent role for Western classical music? (hopefully we can get beyond the 'it's good to have a plurality of traditions represented' argument - in any form of teaching some decisions have to be made on what to include and what not to (including within genres) - upon what basis are such decisions to be made?).
The issue is not really so drastic or complex Ian. The study of Western Art Music (in the traditional way) will continue very healthily under the broad name of Musicology. Popular Music (including Jazz) will rightly continue increasingly to be studied academically, but as a branch of Ethnomusicology (the discipline of which it is rightly a subset). The credible academic study of anything rests, surely, upon the prior existence of a suitably-extensive body of literature to support the research needed to achieve such an end. Such a body now also exists for Popular Music, even though it is still nowhere near as extensive as that for Art Music. But there is more than enough for the purpose, and as Popular Music studies continue, more and more excellent written materials are being published by scholars who - having been appointed to teaching posts in this area - are producing proper research to move the discipline further forward (i.e. as a credible academic enterprise). As a subset of Ethnomusicology, it is sufficiently important in its own right to exist on its own, and be given a name such as Jazz and Popular Music Studies without in any way having to fit into some other more broad Ethno agenda. But, in reality, its status as a branch of Ethno provides the appropriate line of demarcation between its own objectives and those of a more broadly-based Musicology course focussing upon Western Art Music. Before I retired as a University Head of Music (and I won't say where!) at a well-known institution, I became increasingly worried by the inability of the traditional BMus to include pathways for those who were really "Jazzers" or more interested in Popular Music. For that very reason, I inaugurated a dedicated BMus in Jazz and Popular Music. The intake of students is very good, and the performing abilities of the students exceptional. They have their own course running in parallel with the traditional, though great care was taken to identify various areas of commonality where the students come together for shared experiences (instead of forming two opposing sets). But the thrust of the Popular Music course has a strong Ethno dimension in which - in addition to all the more creative work undertaken - students view their subject in terms of its relevance, meaning and significance to Society. These students are by no means "poor relatives", especially since most of them are far more advanced in their performing abilities than the others! Baz |
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #108 on: 10:40:16, 09-08-2007 » |
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The issue is not really so drastic or complex Ian. The study of Western Art Music (in the traditional way) will continue very healthily under the broad name of Musicology. Popular Music (including Jazz) will rightly continue increasingly to be studied academically, but as a branch of Ethnomusicology (the discipline of which it is rightly a subset). Well, there is a not insignificant body of opinion that would ask why Western Art Music shouldn't equally be treated as a branch of Ethnomusicology, and I'm not sure I would have any argument to present against that - what would you say? |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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Baziron
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« Reply #109 on: 11:01:02, 09-08-2007 » |
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The issue is not really so drastic or complex Ian. The study of Western Art Music (in the traditional way) will continue very healthily under the broad name of Musicology. Popular Music (including Jazz) will rightly continue increasingly to be studied academically, but as a branch of Ethnomusicology (the discipline of which it is rightly a subset). Well, there is a not insignificant body of opinion that would ask why Western Art Music shouldn't equally be treated as a branch of Ethnomusicology, and I'm not sure I would have any argument to present against that - what would you say? There is no reason why Western Art Music could not be treated as a branch of Ethnomusicology, and - to some extent - it already is. The perspective would, however, need to be primarily anthropological. This perspective is already there in certain pockets of study, especially through modules focussing upon such things as Music and Society, or Music and Religion. In a way, the study (broadly) of Historical Musicology cannot (and should not!) lack the required anthropological perspective questioning not only the "when" and "how", but also the "why". However, the broad body of Western Art Music is better understood (I feel) through studies that focus primarily upon analytic techniques, performance practices and compositional methods. Such approaches could and should also be used for the study of Popular Music, though it seems unlikely at present to excite the same interest in students and practitioners as issues that home in on the more immediate concerns such as (say) Music and Commercialism, or Film Music (which both have a more immediate sociological relevance to most who choose this discipline). Baz |
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« Last Edit: 11:07:55, 09-08-2007 by Baziron »
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #110 on: 11:14:44, 09-08-2007 » |
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There is no reason why Western Art Music could not be treated as a branch of Ethnomusicology, and - to some extent - it already is. The perspective would, however, need to be primarily anthropological. This perspective is already there in certain pockets of study, especially through modules focussing upon such things as Music and Society, or Music and Religion. In a way, the study (broadly) of Historical Musicology cannot (and should not!) lack the required anthropological perspective questioning not only the "when" and "how", but also the "why".
However, the broad body of Western Art Music is better understood (I feel) through studies that focus primarily upon analytic techniques, performance practices and compositional methods. Such approaches could and should also be used for the study of Popular Music, though it seems unlikely at present to excite the same interest in students and practitioners as issues that home in on the more immediate concerns such as (say) Music and Commercialism, or Film Music (which both have a more immediate sociological relevance to most who choose this discipline). That's very interesting - I think that analytic techniques/performance practice/compositional method are not incompatible within a framework for the discipline influenced by ethnomusicology, though? In terms of the study of non-Western music, the former two are certainly concerns, less so the latter because of the lesser status given to the individual work as the product of a single composer. But the very fact that the latter has become privileged in the last couple of centuries in particular, in Western art music, is itself a sociological phenomenon, don't you think? Certainly the types of contemporary musicology that are becoming increasingly influential (and in which I'm interested) have looked more deeply at such things. I suppose what I'm arguing is that such things as compositional strategies, approaches to performance, and also reception and reception history are themselves socially constituted for Western art music, as they are for non-Western or non-'art' music. And that there is value in attempting to stand back a bit and consider Western art music in such a manner, not least in light of the fact that the circumstances under which it is heard constitute a particular social function every bit as much as amongst, say, Vendan Africans. And different types of music (and performance) are engineered in part according to their suitability for various social functions. These are highly contentious attitudes and approaches amongst many involved on a day-to-day basis with the production or consumption of Western art music, though (as witnessed by when such debates arise in other contexts on this board, for example), but from what you are saying above, would I be right in thinking you would agree to an extent? |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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ahinton
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« Reply #111 on: 12:22:07, 09-08-2007 » |
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Rather than take up space quoting immediately recent posts from Baziron and Ian, here's just a small aside of a question for Ian; do you think that, where the reception of much Western Art-music is concerned, there is a prevalence among those who listen to it with reasonable frequency to prioritise the question "what does this music do for me personally?" over "what is the position and rôle of this music in society?" - I am not, however, suggesting whether, if indeed this is the case to any degree, it might be a good, bad or indifferent thing...
Best,
Alistair
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #112 on: 12:36:36, 09-08-2007 » |
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Rather than take up space quoting immediately recent posts from Baziron and Ian, here's just a small aside of a question for Ian; do you think that, where the reception of much Western Art-music is concerned, there is a prevalence among those who listen to it with reasonable frequency to prioritise the question "what does this music do for me personally?" over "what is the position and rôle of this music in society?" - I am not, however, suggesting whether, if indeed this is the case to any degree, it might be a good, bad or indifferent thing... It's hard to generalise on this question, I reckon. Probably for non-professional musicians or those who study music, I would imagine the former question is the more likely; for some others the latter can be part of an attempt to assess the wider meanings and significance of the music in question over and above simply what it means to one particular first person. For those who perceive themselves in some sense to be 'outsiders' to the traditional rituals of concerts of Western art music, I would imagine the issues of how this social/cultural environment differs from their own is more immediate. But I'm just speculating here. |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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Chafing Dish
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« Reply #113 on: 12:54:12, 09-08-2007 » |
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To a degree, less in some than in others, Alistair's two hypothetical questions are two sides of one and the same coin. When I ask "What is the position and role of this music in society?", then that feeds into the first question, namely in the form of "Why does this music do for me personally what it does?" It's not a complete answer by any means, but it's a link between the questions that more saliently hews to Baz' definition of a musical education.
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #114 on: 12:59:48, 09-08-2007 » |
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do you think that, where the reception of much Western Art-music is concerned, there is a prevalence among those who listen to it with reasonable frequency to prioritise the question "what does this music do for me personally?" over "what is the position and rôle of this music in society?" Surely that is going to depend on where you are located in the world when you ask the question? I occasionally work in parts of Asia where "Western" Art-music is an imported phenomenon which has no roots within the local culture. Any following it may have is as a result of either (a) any intrinsic merit as "art" this music might have for those with eclectic tastes and the time/curiosity/financial resources* to try it (b) the dog-ends of "cultural-imperialism" by countries who have formerly attempted to hold sway in these areas (c) something rather similar to (b) that results from disatisfaction with the way the local Govt is running things, and a perverse and unfocussed belief that whatever they are promoting is the opposite of "what is actually any good". I am consistently aware when I am in these places that "western art-music" is two steps removed from their own world of experiences and reference-points (sometimes due to restricted exposure to it, and sometimes because - as in China during the Cultural Revolution - it's actually been banned). * the question of financial resources should not be overlooked. There are almost no performances of "western" opera in Beijing, for example, and those performances which happen are given by touring foreign outfits. Two years ago I happened to catch a performance conducted by Seiji Ozawa... but the tickets would have cost a week's wages for an average office-worker. Similarly my pals from Helikon-Opera Moscow were on tour in China last year in Lanzhou, with LADY MACBETH OF MTSENSK in honour of the DSCH Birthday Beanfeast. Sponsorship of their costs enabled them to put the tickets on sale for just $20, but the hall was near-empty save for invited dignitaries... apparently $3 is the ceiling price for shows their normal. With the exception of a few pirated "grand-opera" disks of mainstream fare (Otello, Traviata, Boheme, Butterfly, Aida, Marriage of Figaro, L'Elisir d'Amore) there is practically no opera available in China on disk, and even less symphonic repertoire (except for "Classical Pops" collections). You need deep pockets to order from abroad - huge Chinese taxes will be added on delivery too, if the disks aren't nicked en-route through the Postal system (as often happens). |
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
- Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #115 on: 13:09:27, 09-08-2007 » |
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To a degree, less in some than in others, Alistair's two hypothetical questions are two sides of one and the same coin. When I ask "What is the position and role of this music in society?", then that feeds into the first question, namely in the form of "Why does this music do for me personally what it does?" It's not a complete answer by any means, but it's a link between the questions that more saliently hews to Baz' definition of a musical education.
That's a much better way of answering the question than my response. In terms of the second formulation that you give above, though, would you agree with me that that involves asking as much about oneself as it does about the music? |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #116 on: 13:13:54, 09-08-2007 » |
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do you think that, where the reception of much Western Art-music is concerned, there is a prevalence among those who listen to it with reasonable frequency to prioritise the question "what does this music do for me personally?" over "what is the position and rôle of this music in society?" Surely that is going to depend on where you are located in the world when you ask the question? I occasionally work in parts of Asia where "Western" Art-music is an imported phenomenon which has no roots within the local culture. Any following it may have is as a result of either (a) any intrinsic merit as "art" this music might have for those with eclectic tastes and the time/curiosity/financial resources* to try it (b) the dog-ends of "cultural-imperialism" by countries who have formerly attempted to hold sway in these areas (c) something rather similar to (b) that results from disatisfaction with the way the local Govt is running things, and a perverse and unfocussed belief that whatever they are promoting is the opposite of "what is actually any good". I am consistently aware when I am in these places that "western art-music" is two steps removed from their own world of experiences and reference-points (sometimes due to restricted exposure to it, and sometimes because - as in China during the Cultural Revolution - it's actually been banned). In addition to all the undoubtedly true and important stuff above, I'd just add that, albeit to a lesser degree, this sort of phenomenon might be true in parts of Western society as well? In my locality of East Croydon, there is a major concert hall (Fairfield), which mostly puts on popular classics, but I would guess that for a great number of young people here, popular music and clubbing are more of the norm in terms of their own local culture, and 'Western art-music' might be a highly alien phenomenon for many of them - one that exists in proximity to them, but not one with which they strongly self-identify. Mightn't they be also likely to consider the music more in terms of the second question (albeit perhaps not framing it in the same sort of language)? |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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ahinton
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« Reply #117 on: 13:14:08, 09-08-2007 » |
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do you think that, where the reception of much Western Art-music is concerned, there is a prevalence among those who listen to it with reasonable frequency to prioritise the question "what does this music do for me personally?" over "what is the position and rôle of this music in society?" Surely that is going to depend on where you are located in the world when you ask the question? I occasionally work in parts of Asia where "Western" Art-music is an imported phenomenon which has no roots within the local culture. Any following it may have is as a result of either (a) any intrinsic merit as "art" this music might have for those with eclectic tastes and the time/curiosity/financial resources* to try it (b) the dog-ends of "cultural-imperialism" by countries who have formerly attempted to hold sway in these areas (c) something rather similar to (b) that results from disatisfaction with the way the local Govt is running things, and a perverse and unfocussed belief that whatever they are promoting is the opposite of "what is actually any good". I am consistently aware when I am in these places that "western art-music" is two steps removed from their own world of experiences and reference-points (sometimes due to restricted exposure to it, and sometimes because - as in China during the Cultural Revolution - it's actually been banned). * the question of financial resources should not be overlooked. There are almost no performances of "western" opera in Beijing, for example, and those performances which happen are given by touring foreign outfits. Two years ago I happened to catch a performance conducted by Seiji Ozawa... but the tickets would have cost a week's wages for an average office-worker. Similarly my pals from Helikon-Opera Moscow were on tour in China last year in Lanzhou, with LADY MACBETH OF MTSENSK in honour of the DSCH Birthday Beanfeast. Sponsorship of their costs enabled them to put the tickets on sale for just $20, but the hall was near-empty save for invited dignitaries... apparently $3 is the ceiling price for shows their normal. With the exception of a few pirated "grand-opera" disks of mainstream fare (Otello, Traviata, Boheme, Butterfly, Aida, Marriage of Figaro, L'Elisir d'Amore) there is practically no opera available in China on disk, and even less symphonic repertoire (except for "Classical Pops" collections). You need deep pockets to order from abroad - huge Chinese taxes will be added on delivery too, if the disks aren't nicked en-route through the Postal system (as often happens).I take your many valid and important points entirely here and do not wish to duck any issues involved when I say (as now I do) that I should have had the forethought to confine consideration of my two little questions to people living in the west in respect of attitudes to western art-music rather than throw it open to a more global arena. Best, Alistair |
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #118 on: 13:15:55, 09-08-2007 » |
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(by the way, as the shocking figures to be observed when certain composers mount the scales seems no longer to be the principal item of discussion, should this all be moved to another thread - perhaps with posts shifted there?)
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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Chafing Dish
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« Reply #119 on: 13:20:49, 09-08-2007 » |
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To a degree, less in some than in others, Alistair's two hypothetical questions are two sides of one and the same coin. When I ask "What is the position and role of this music in society?", then that feeds into the first question, namely in the form of "Why does this music do for me personally what it does?" It's not a complete answer by any means, but it's a link between the questions that more saliently hews to Baz' definition of a musical education.
That's a much better way of answering the question than my response. In terms of the second formulation that you give above, though, would you agree with me that that involves asking as much about oneself as it does about the music? Sure. All education is about oneself, isn't it? About clarifying one's position in the world? |
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